Why Alcohol Free Beer Is Booming

Martin (00:00)
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Beer Rep Chats with and proudly sponsored by The Keg Warehouse. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Sam from We Can Be Friends. Sam, thanks for joining the show.

Sam (00:13)
Thank you for having me on.

Martin (00:14)
mate, it's a pleasure to have you on. I'm really interested to learn a bit more about alcohol free beer and everything that's involved, the processes and stuff. So you know, for anyone who hasn't come across we can be friends before. can you tell us a bit about it and where the idea first came from?

Sam (00:28)
Yeah, we are one of the only, there's only a few brewers in the UK that just do alcohol-free beers. That's kind of the idea from the beginning, we're just brewing different styles of beer, but non-alcoholic versions.

Martin (00:46)
Cool. so do you you don't have your own brewery per se, so you brew at other breweries to do these beers?

Sam (00:52)
Yeah, I was saying to you just before we started the podcast, it's just me here. So, I don't quite have the resources to run my own brewery at the moment. yeah, everything's contract, but I have some really good partners that I work with. yeah. So, yeah, contract, contract brewing.

Martin (01:14)
Awesome. can you name a few breweries that you've brewed some of the beers in?

Sam (01:18)
Well I tend to do lot of collabs, I mean probably about 60 % of the beers that I've released at the moment have all been collabs, so I'm kind of all over the place all of the time. Half of my days are spent traveling around going to different breweries, kind of helping them out with the alcohol free projects, so yeah I mean probably name a brewery that you've heard of in the...

craft sphere and I've probably been there at one point. I do mate, I do yeah.

Martin (01:56)
So what was it about, you know, alcohol free beer that made you think, yeah, this is where I want to focus, you know, my time and energy and everything and invest in

Sam (02:04)
Yeah, so I started life as a production brewer, brewing regular strength beer. I don't know what to call it these days. Normal beer. I always have to explain that it's got alcohol in the one that I'm not talking about. yeah, just like regular beer, I started brewing that got really into like low strength stuff. I think it was during

Martin (02:13)
Just beer. It's still just beer, isn't it?

Sam (02:34)
during COVID, I was working a lot and there was a real desire for people drinking at home, which I think I'll come on to the point later, but I think that's a good reason why alcohol-free has picked up a lot recently too. But I think there was a lot of drinking at home and there was that desire to have more kind of low strength beers. And yeah, it was just trying to get.

the flavour of the bigger beers into the smaller ones, trying to bolster the body, trying to make really nice session strength stuff. And around about the same time, Mash Gang really took off and it kind of coincided with that whole like me exploring alcohol-free beers. I was always really interested in it and I really wanted to

like make one and it was kind of like when I see their stuff it was a bit of a light went off and it was like you can just do alcohol free beer.

and you can make it well and people can be excited about it. So I think that was the first time that I actually thought, that it gave me bit of inspiration. I thought, oh yeah, this is definitely a viable option for running a beer brand.

Martin (04:06)
Yeah, definitely. I mean, obviously, yeah, COVID probably did change a lot of people's perception of of you know how much they want to be drinking. Obviously there not many people like to drink indoors, but if they did, because we had to because of during the pandemic, I suppose people wanted lower options or or alcohol free options. So they was probably looking for that. But also I think there's a like a a big

like health kick movement going around as well now. especially with like, you know, the younger generation where they're very conscious of their health and want to drink a bit less. And if they do drink, they probably want to mix it up a bit and not, you know, just drink alcohol all the time.

Sam (04:45)
think that like alcohol free beers kind of have it having its moment. Everyone's like, there's a bit of excitement about it. Things are happening in in that world. And I don't attribute it really to one thing. Yeah, there is younger people drinking less, but I think that's like a small part of it. I think probably the major one from my perspective is that

The beer scene and the people that are really into beer are generally, like, I don't know how old you are, but I'm 40. So they tend to be around, yeah, they tend to be around our age. And I think as they've got a bit older and now you have different responsibilities, I think it just fits better in people's lives a bit more.

Martin (05:24)
Forty three.

Yeah.

Sam (05:41)
Because the demographic is definitely probably 30 to 60 year olds. So it kind of fits within that age group. Yeah. And as people are getting older, they have different objectives in life, don't they?

Martin (06:01)
Yeah, I suppose yeah, obviously, you know, probably the older you get, you know, the better your job is and your better pay and you can afford to kind of, you know, venture out a bit and and try different different beers rather than your, you know, six pack of Fosters from your local news agents.

Sam (06:18)
Yeah, I've

got two children too and it's not directly related to that but I feel like my consumption of alcohol definitely dropped when I had children so alcohol-free options fit in better there too.

Martin (06:37)
Yeah, definitely. Well you're not allowed you can't go out every night, can you, that's for sure. You can't just pop round the boozer with your mates.

Sam (06:43)
I think Guinness Zero was like a major player in like changing people's perceptions of alcohol-free beer because I mean you want to stand there, you want to cook for your children, you want to feel like an adult, you don't want to be supping on soft drinks, you want to have a beer and cook and have a family meal and I think it goes part and parcel with that kind of feeling that you're having a beer but

also got to put them to bed, you know, so like, so yeah, it's opened up that little window for people to have alcohol free options.

Martin (07:13)
Exactly that, yeah.

Yeah, definitely. It's a lot of is that zebra striping, is it what it's called? Where people have like an alcohol beer and a you know, alcohol free one and you know, mix it up throughout the evening or something to kind of, you know, lower their consumption but also give them less of a hangover, I suppose, the next day.

Sam (07:36)
Yeah.

Yeah, I think that was probably always there though. I remember drinking a lot of water when I used to go out and drink a lot.

Martin (07:45)
Yeah. That's to stay

hydrated though, isn't it, surely?

Sam (07:50)
Yeah, I mean, it spreads out the evening a little bit, but now I suppose you can sit there and again, still have a drink and curb the drunk behavior of it.

Martin (08:04)
Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. So when you like when you first started,

we can be friends. Did you feel like the alcohol free market was a bit underserved? I mean I mean going back god how many years ago twenty twenty-five years ago there wasn't many alcohol free options at all and I remember Kaliber I think it was the only alcohol free beer that I used to I used I remember from my early days in hospitality. so did you see like an opportunity to kind of you know do things differently and I know you mentioned you know you was inspired by Mash Gang, but did you feel there was still like an opportunity

For more

Sam (08:42)
It wasn't like an opportunity and I'm going to take, I've got this great idea for a business plan. It was more just the love of beer and the love of craft beer. I feel like a lot of alcohol-free brands, apart from the macro side of things, the ones that are trying to do more craft stuff haven't actually come from brewers. there more,

brand makers and health enthusiasts. And I think that was another thing that Mash Gang tapped into. They tapped into like having a craft style beer that was the same, in the same world as all the other beer, rather than trying to make it this separate entity.

where you have beer and then you have non-alcoholic beer because at the end of the day it's all the same. It all goes on the same shelf.

Martin (09:45)
They

kind of made it a part of the craft beer scene rather than the separating it from separated from it. Yeah.

Sam (09:51)
I think coming from that world, I didn't think there was that many beers that were tasting like the craft beers that I love. I'm really into hops and hop products and fresh ingredients. And yeah, I feel like that was maybe missing a little bit from alcohol-free beer.

Martin (10:15)
Yeah, definitely. Do you think it's I mean it's it's come a long way in like the last three years, you know, is is growth year on year for alcohol-free beer. in quite a short space of time. So, you know, from your perspective, you know, what what do you think's changed the most?

Sam (10:31)
I think it's the drinker. I think the, the people that are into their craft beers and are now zebra striping with their non-alcoholic beers too. Whereas I feel like three years ago, there was probably a bit of a look down your nose attitude about it, but because it's got better and they're, they're tasting like

a lot of the beers that come out now from good breweries, the non-alcoholic options are tasting really good. So I think the perception of them has changed that they do actually taste good and it's okay to drink these. I think talking about the collaborations earlier, I think for me, getting breweries that wouldn't generally make alcohol-free beer,

make one and have it yourself, it sort of validates it amongst that crowd too that these are good beers, like you can make really good beers and it's not just a throwaway option if you don't want to get drunk or you're not drinking for a bit, like you want a really tasty drink, like something that's...

quenches that first, that the same feeling that you have when you have a beer and having those collaborators on board, yeah, shows that it is okay and they are good.

Martin (12:08)
I mean it i it shows that how much it's it's grown. You know, you had even, you know, big breweries like you know well well respected breweries like Beak starting a whole new brand just for alcohol free with Nolia that was a big

You know, kind of for me that was kind of a big wake up call to say, you know, it's it's a it's a big it's not just, you know, a little movement for like a couple of years that actually there's a lot of breweries that actually really want to improve the alcohol free side of their products and their range.

Sam (12:41)
it's becoming an extension of the range now, hasn't it? You have your IPA, your Pale and your alcohol free, which is a great thing. I think it's really good.

Martin (12:44)
Yeah.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah. And it's great to see so many breweries, you know, embracing it. And, you know, the more the more brewers that are getting involved and trying to improve their alcohol free range and and the you know the taste of the beer, that you know, it's only going to get better. I mean I I've noticed a a massive improvement in just three years of the taste of alcohol free beer. and hopefully, you know, you got companies like yeast companies at WHC who are introducing products that

Will help to brew better alcohol free beers. Have you heard of a product called W from WHC called Bodybuilder? Have you used that at all?

Sam (13:27)
I've seen it, I haven't used it, but yeah, there's a few similar products that are available that are out there. But yeah, although all of the products that are coming out now to help with these beers are great.

Martin (13:29)
Yeah.

Yeah. Just need some malt that helps that's for alcohol free beer and yeah, that'd be that'd be great. A different strain of of malt to help with producing alcohol free beer. That's the next step, isn't it, I think.

Sam (13:55)
Yeah.

Yeah, I think

that's part of the reason why they are getting better. The whole industry is on board down to like the brewers and the suppliers too. They've taken real interest in getting some products out that help with these things. So, yeah.

Martin (14:15)
Yeah, for sure. Have you been a bit surprised by who's drinking your beers or are they are they mainly people who don't drink alcohol at all, or are you seeing more craft beer fans looking to kind of try these alcohol free options and see what they're like?

Sam (14:32)
I think it's mainly the breweries where the beers start. A lot of them, maybe a few years ago, didn't want to brew these. But there's a real excitement about learning and trying to make something really good. I think that, yeah, from a brewer's perspective.

it's, they're really excited in making things. I think that was one of the things that got me into it in the first place was I wanted to make beer, but there are so many good 5%, 4%, 6 % beers out there that you're competing against those to try, you're competing against the beaks and the tracks to try and make beer as good as them.

And I think you've always got to have your own angle and yeah, it's exciting learning new things because there's no real rule book on it at the moment. So you kind of have to make up your own. I think that's exciting.

Martin (15:45)
Yeah.

can we talk a bit about like the process of of brewing alcohol free beer? Because obviously there's a lot of misconception out there with people thinking, if it's alcohol free it should be it should cost a lot cheaper. But it just obviously that's not the case for anyone who who works inside the industry. So can we just touch base on a bit about, you know, the the costings of how what it takes to produce an alcohol free beer and the process a bit?

Sam (16:12)
Yeah. So often people think that it should be cheaper, but, in terms of ingredients, I use as many ingredients as what people would in their IPAs, as many hops, maybe a touch less malt, but malt as you probably know, is like the cheapest part of production. Really. It's the cost least, but the can cost the same. The label costs the same.

It takes the same amount of time in tank. So that rent that you have to pay is the same. Firing on that brewery for the day, it's the same cost. Paying that brewer to brew the beer, it's all the same. People often find that think that there's a big duty on beer, which there is.

But often those costs get eaten up by other things. So there's extra processes that go in to making alcohol-free beer, which eat up all of that cost. on a pound to pound basis, there's not that much difference in brewing a regular strength beer to an alcohol-free one. And actually in the end product,

Even though both are still quite expensive, it is reflected in the final price. Alcohol-free beers do tend to be cheaper.

But they're never going to be dirt cheap if they're really good ones that have like really great ingredients and are made really well.

Martin (18:00)
Yeah. So in in your experience, do you do most of the breweries that you've worked in use a like a pasteurizer or or de alkaliser, which which kind of is the most popular form that

Sam (18:12)
things to strength. So I do everything that I can to try and keep the initial fermentation to a minimum. But then for stabilisation, yeah, they get pasteurized to stabilise the beers and to make them safe.

Martin (18:41)
Yeah. That's the biggest thing, isn't it, when you when you're using that is to make sure that there's no things that can spoil when the beer when you're pasteurising it because you're removing the alcohol. It's it's quite a tricky process, isn't it?

Sam (18:54)
they tend to be a bit lighter so they can go off a bit easier than a regular beer in the same way that lagers can sometimes, if they're really light, they can sometimes be more susceptible to having a shorter shelf life and I think that's the thing with alcohol-free beers, they have a shelf life.

Yeah, that's why I really do draft stuff. I've kind of, there's a big drive towards draft stuff at the moment, but I've kind of kept out the way of that just because, yeah, I think it needs a lot of trialing and it needs, things need to be able to stay on tap for a long time and be tasting as good two weeks down the line as they do on the first day.

I feel there is more of a drop off with that than there are with regular beers. So we're getting close, but once that hurdle gets bridged, yeah, I'd probably go into like doing some more keg stuff.

Martin (20:04)
Awesome. That sounds good. So when you're when you're developing a beer, you know, what what are the key things you're looking for to make sure it stands up along the side like a you a full strength craft beer and like you said, obviously you brew it exactly the same and ferment it as you would a normal beer.

Sam (20:19)
So, I mean, hops is a big thing in beer, in craft beer. People do get really excited by them. I think just using good quality ingredients and if there's a new thing that comes out, I like a few other brewers get excited and want to try it and want to put it in a beer and give it a go and see what comes out at the end. So I think that when...

making a beer if there's there's something new there. There's been a lot of push towards liquid hops at the moment. There's some really good products a few years ago. They wasn't really there. They tasted a bit weird. They're great at the moment. Some of the liquid hops that are coming out are really good and they seem to be coming out with new ones every six months that seem to be better than the last lot. So I mean, those things.

tend to be quite exciting.

Martin (21:19)
Yeah, I'm I'm heading more towards using hop oils.

Sam (21:24)
Yeah.

Martin (21:24)
rather than pellets just because it's you get more you get more in your in your tank and and more into your you know your kegs and stuff after fermentation. So yeah, I'm I'm heading towards more more of the hop oils. There's more more varieties available now as well when than there used to be, like you said, a couple of years ago. I think it was only like what citra I think and a and a few others. but now there seems to be a more of a bigger range, which is good to see.

very costly though. costs a lot of money to get them in, but you kind of save a little bit on l in the long term, Yeah.

Sam (21:58)
Yeah, it's a bit of push and pull, it? Have

you tried the new Prisma yet?

Martin (22:04)
No, not tried that yet. No. I think the next one I'm gonna try, I wanna try Krush the new hop pellet that's come out, but also wanna try some mosaic oil, see how that goes. but yeah, yeah, it's interesting. There's a lot of avenues to go down now, but you know, you kind of so much to try and and than there used to be. So yeah, I'm exploring them myself.

Sam (22:16)
Nice.

Martin (22:31)
And I've also tried the bodybuilder, which I'm yet to taste to see how that turned out. I'm just adding in small increments at the moment just to see how much, you know, you need to add to get the body that you need.

Sam (22:37)
Yeah.

those things are really good. Some of them have been about for years. When I started brewing Sessions strength stuff, that was like, I think it was round about towards the end of COVID time, there was a real push for like 3 % beers and everyone thought it was really strange that that was like the new in thing, which these days seems crazy because it seems pretty normal to have a 3.5 % beer.

But yeah, I really got stuck into those and building the body on those and trying to get them as good tasting as possible. That was like, that was the real challenge. So all of these little products are really good. And I feel like there's probably some transferable stuff between alcohol-free stuff and low session stuff too.

I've always thought it'd be great if a brewery made a 1 % beer. I don't think the world's ready for it yet, but...

Martin (23:50)
It might blow people's minds that, what is it is it alcohol free or

Sam (23:52)
I think you can get a really

good, amazing 1 % beer. You could load it with hops, it would taste amazing. You wouldn't have to pay duty on it. And yeah, you could make something amazing, but I don't know who would buy it or who would really want it. Maybe that's something for the future.

Martin (24:07)
That helps.

Why don't you give it a go?

Yeah, definitely. I I would suggest it. Yeah, give it a go. If you don't try it, you don't know, do you? It could be the one thing that really takes off, you know.

Sam (24:24)
Yeah.

the alcohol free crowd, a lot of the people are ex drinkers or people that don't drink anymore. So that 0.5 % your body can metabolise that so quick that you don't get the effects of being drunk. It's harder than me one time before, but it's the same as a ripe banana.

Martin (24:50)
Yeah, you you can drink, drink, drink.

Yes, I have heard that, yeah.

Sam (24:57)
I think.

But there's been no study in the 1%. So I think it's that grey area that you don't really want to push products on people that are used to buying your stuff that maybe don't drink alcohol or at one point had problems with alcohol, but they still like the rituals of it. So yeah, I think it's more one for you guys at the brewery rather than an alcohol-free guy.

Martin (25:24)
Yeah, it's it's an interesting one. It'd be interesting to see, you know, how people react to it, for sure. Are there like certain styles that kind of go part hand in hand with alcohol-free brewing and and is there others that kind of other styles of beer that you kind of keep you awake when you think, I'd love to make an alcohol-free version of this style of beer, but it's a bit, you know, tricky.

Sam (25:28)
Hmm.

Yeah, I think when your predominant flavour is hops, it does a lot for the beer. So I'd say anything hoppy. I wouldn't say it's easy, but those are the ones that people tend to lean on. think like 90 % of the market at the moment is IPAs and Pale ales alcohol-free ones. So I'd say it leans into that style.

I've just bought out an IPA and it's been the first one I've had in six months because I've been tackling lagers and they've been way harder to get right. I think I'm at a place where I think they're really, really good. they stand up to ordinary lagers, but yeah, it was a real struggle. A couple of batches went down the drain making that.

Martin (26:47)
Is that mainly because y it's not really many hop it's not much hops in a in a lager and it's you you're relying more on the on the malt flavour?

Sam (26:56)
Yeah, I think because it's more delicate, there's more balance there. So if you're if you're too sweet, you're you're way too sweet. If you don't have enough body, it just falls to pieces. If you chuck too much hops, you're too bitter. Like there's such a balance in that there, which sometimes you can maybe push with IPAs. Like if it's slightly a bit too bitter for my taste, that's that could be

someone's ideal IPA for someone else. And I mean, you can never have enough body in an IPA, but if you have too much body in a lager, then it doesn't come across quite right.

Martin (27:42)
Yeah. It'd be a bit weird, wouldn't it? Having too much of a Yeah. It'd be like, gosh, this is I'm sure this is supposed to taste crisp and refreshing and it feels like I'm chugging down a like you said, like a an IPA. It'd be a bit strange. so obviously you say you work at other breweries to brew the beers that that you know we can be friends. You know, how important have building them partnerships been for the brand?

Sam (27:44)
Yeah, yeah, big dick log.

Yeah.

What?

I think it's really important. you got to have people that you trust. And I've kind of had this thing from the beginning. There's, there's a few like big contract breweries out there. or like big breweries that do contracting for people. And I'm always a bit not dubious, but I tend to avoid anything that's not in the world where I want.

my beers to be. So I like small craft breweries that make these types of beers day in, day out, who our into their hops and they're used. Like when I bring them some hop liquid, they're like, yeah, we've used this last week. They're familiar with the products. Rather than a contract brewery just bashing it out for the sake of it, I think it's really important to work with small

breweries to get the quality of product that I want. And I think in this day and age, we need to help each other out too because things are not easy at the moment.

Martin (29:21)
Certainly not, no, definitely not easy at the moment for for anyone. hopefully in a not too distant future, you know, we that's that might help sort it might get sorted out, but you know, it's it's just seems to be that, you know, the government just wanna tax and tax and take from the from the industry as a whole, you know, not just the brewing side of things but also hospitality as a whole is is really struggling at the moment.

Sam (29:49)
Yeah, think

the main goal at the moment for a lot of places is survival. Profit is but a dream.

Martin (30:00)
certainly is, yeah. And everyone seems to think that you're making loads and loads of money. But when you know when you take away all the costs for everything, it's if any it's some some some people even make a loss, you know, and they're putting their own money into to keep keep the brewery going. And obviously there's been breweries that have closed recently, redemption.

queer brewing which was a a big surprise to me after just opening up their brand new brewery and deciding to call it a day and it's really sad for the industry. I think they you know what they offered was was amazing. yeah it's just yeah yeah definitely. so looking back on you know all the all the collaborations that you've done what one are you particularly proud of?

Sam (30:35)
Yep, it was that point of difference too, wasn't it?

I think the ones that I enjoy the most are when we've made more than one beer together. Track I've made three beers with. Another brewery that closed recently, Overtone, I've made three beers with those guys. And I like it because we come up with a concept for a beer and then we go back in and we tweak it.

we make it better. That's that style or that brewery or that recipe that we came up with. So I think the ones that we developed the idea tend to come out a lot better, or my favourite ones, they're my favourite ones to work on anyway, because you're like, right what did we like about last time? And what can we do? Let's do that.

The one-offs are great, they're brilliant, but I do like going back in and trying stuff. I think my biggest thing was Track giving me a go at the beginning because the head brewer, Matt, contacted me after I just released my first beer and he was very complimentary about it.

So that was like a real like compliment and at the time I didn't know whether I was doing the right thing but it felt like I was doing the right thing.

Martin (32:19)
Yeah, so like all the you know, all the t all the things that you thought, is it the is it right? Is it is it gonna work? And then to get a message from, you know, a very well respected brewer, and a brewery, to to get in contact with you and and give you a kind of a pat on the back and and a job well done was I mean that must have been felt amazing.

Sam (32:36)
Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I did have a crisis at one point. I remember telling my partner we was drinking a beer and I was like, does it taste too much like craft beers? Are people going to get this? It's not tasting non-alcoholic-y enough. What was non-alcoholic beer at the time? I was like, should I copy these and make it more like this so people get it rather than more like the craft beer that I like?

because no one else is doing this and I don't know why. Yeah, so hopefully it was the right method.

Martin (33:11)
Yeah,

well it's all worked out. Yeah, I mean you're you know, the the beers that you brew, the alcohol free beers you're brewing are are very, very well respected, for the people that

you know, drink alcohol free beer and and even ones that don't drink alcohol free beer, you know, people that just normal craft beer drinkers that that do like to try and dabble in alcohol free beer, again, doing really, really well and it's it's it's showing, you know, because you're getting the the interest and it's building, the growth is building for alcohol free beer and and that can only be good for the industry to be more diverse, you know, in in their styles of beer. so where do you think

you know, alcohol free beer will be in five years' time. It's obviously I just mentioned it's just it's improving year on year. So where where do you think it'll be in five years? Do you reckon it'll kind of find its equilibrium point and stay as it is or you see it continuing to rise?

Sam (34:09)
I have no idea. I've been asked this before and I'm really not sure. It's there and it's very prominent at the moment and people are really into it. But it could go the same way as the Brut IPA, where people just get bored of it at one point. But I don't think so. I think it will be, as I said earlier, it's the tag on to the range. There's more option, there's more inclusivity.

People want to go out. They still want their beers. If you've got 10 lines on in your pub, try one alcohol-free one. There's a couple of places that I don't do many kegs, but sometimes I do some like small runs because I know they get through it quickly. they're like alcohol-free stuff is so IPA sell the most, then alcohol-free stuff sells more than

Martin (34:44)
Yeah, I agree.

Sam (35:06)
our sours or our stouts. So it's a good sign. People are drinking it. In five years, hopefully, I don't know, maybe the perception of it might change a bit more as though it's fine to do. I kind of hope that it will for the hospitality industry. There's a friend of mine is on Instagram, he's the Sober Boozers Club. I don't know if you've seen him.

Martin (35:36)
Yeah. I know him yeah.

Sam (35:36)
was

he said before that bring back the midday pint and it's a good way to do that. Like you can go in on your lunch break and have an alcohol free one. It's not so accepted these days to have a beer at lunchtime. So

Martin (35:53)
Yeah. Maybe maybe you should

pitch it pitch it to Parliament. There's a big hoo ha about them drinking on on duty, isn't there?

Sam (36:02)
Yeah,

I mean, different industries are more accepting of different things. yeah, I mean, I think that's a great idea, like going in and having those hubs, like pubs and bar spaces where you can go during the day and it not be frowned upon. yeah, the money keeps flowing, the world keeps turning.

Martin (36:29)
Exactly, yeah. obviously the biggest issue you could face for you know for craft independent craft breweries that are having these alcohol free options is again is access to market into pubs and stuff, obviously, because you you wanna see it grow.

Sam (36:45)
Yep.

Martin (36:46)
But then you might find yourself in the same position as, you know, as you know, normal you know, alcohol beers in in pubs. There's no access to to them all. And then if they're if it kicks off the boom kicks off alcohol free trend and and you've got the big globals just putting their products on alcohol free products then

Again, you know, independent breweries are just being pushed out because, you know, all the all this all the lines are being taken up. and they don't allow any independent breweries to to be in their beer in their bars. So that's that that's the only

Sam (37:22)
Yeah,

it's an age-old problem isn't it? I don't think it's one that we're going to get over any time soon.

Martin (37:30)
Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

So what I mean obviously apart from that, what what else would you like to see improve, you know, with you know the the wider beer industry, for alcohol free beer, whether that's like pubs, festivals, retailers?

Sam (37:48)
Yeah, I'm always torn. Like I've done a couple of festivals and it's a really strange, it's a strange sensation when you're there trying to sell an alcohol free option to a bunch of people who are going to a beer festival. It's quite funny, but that option is there. I think, and actually the people that go there,

that are into the alcohol-free beer are really into it. They really like it and they're so happy that there's options for people there. It's often like people who go along with friends and they don't really drink, they're not really into beer, but they're there with friends and they've got an option too. So I think having all of the festivals with an alcohol-free brewery or a few taps on of alcohol-free is a really positive move.

It shows you can go to a beer festival and you don't have to get blotto. Especially if it's an old one. Yeah. I was at one on Saturday down in Portsmouth and for the first session, all of the brewers were drinking the alcohol-free stuff and I was like, oh, this is great. all the people that have been brewing beer for the first session are drinking alcohol-free beer, which is a sign of the times, I guess.

Martin (38:52)
Yeah, especially if it's a long one, you know, you can kind of pace yourself a bit better, but still drink.

Ha ha.

Yeah, definitely, yeah. I mean, you don't wanna be bladded, you know, two, three hours into a a festival, that's for sure. It's a long day, yeah. Especially if you've got to do it the next day as well and the next day, if it's a weekend one, you know, Friday to Sunday.

Sam (39:21)
No, long day too.

Luckily it was one day

but it was a long

Martin (39:32)
Yeah, definitely. So looking ahead, you know, what's exciting you most about We Can Be Friends? You know, what's your kind of future future plans or what would you like to see happen in the future?

Sam (39:44)
Um, so for me at the moment, it's just getting more, more beers out. Um, I tend to, to feel like I'm not getting enough of my own stuff out. So I'm going to really concentrate on that over the next couple of years. Um, having more options. tend to only have like two beers or three beers that have my own. And then I tend to subsidise them with like couple of collabs that I've done. Um,

But it'd be nice to have a healthy range of beers available at all times. I think working on getting a few different styles in there, bigger range and more options for people is what I want to do over the next like six months to a year.

Martin (40:37)
Awesome. So someone, you know, who's listening to the the podcast right now and who's never tried one of your alcohol free beers before, which one of your beers would you hand to them first to try?

Sam (40:50)
I'm

of a bit of a, an anomaly in alcohol free beer. All of my stuff is specials. So they tend to be around for a month and then they're gone. And then the next one's in. So I was always, I'd always say the latest stuff. I've just released my new IPA this week and I've got a lager coming next week. So I'd say those two are really good starting point. There's nothing too,

There's nothing too scary about an IPA and a lager. Give those a go and give them to someone else who doesn't know that they're alcohol free and ask them whether they're alcohol free. I think that's the real test.

Martin (41:30)
That's a blind

test, yeah. That's a that's a great way of of finding out how well an alcohol-free beer is produced if you put you know two beers beside and one's alcohol free and see if they can tell the difference. That's a great way of finding of yeah, definitely. So finally we're gonna end up on you know where can people get your alcohol-free beer from?

Sam (41:45)
Yep.

All right, so I'm quite lucky that a lot of the independents up and down the country, the independent bottle shops, stock beer. So I'd say first port of call is go into your local beer shop and see if they have any of the beers in. And if not, grab an alcohol-free option. There's a lot of great ones about at the moment, like some really good ones. If you like a brewery, try their alcohol-free ones because they're

They're getting really good. If you see my ones there, even better. It helps to support the cause. They'll buy in again next time. If you don't live near a bottle shop or don't have access to one, then I have a site which is wecanbefriends.co.uk. Yeah, all of the new beers are always on there and the clubs are on there. Yeah, so jump on there and make an order. So I appreciate it.

Martin (42:51)
Awesome. Jump onto the website. All the links and stuff to the socials and the website will be in the description below. So yeah,

definitely go and check em out. I love to try all new styles of alcohol free beers. so check out We Can Be Friends and yeah, great brewery, doing some great stuff, really improving the industry. but yeah, Sam, thank you very much for coming on the show. It's been it's been great talking to you, learning a lot about alcohol free beer and and you know, your story and where you came from and the idea to start it all up and everything. So yeah, thanks for coming on.

Sam (43:25)
Yeah, thanks for having me on.

Martin (43:27)
No worries. yeah, until a couple of weeks' time, for everyone listening back home, we'll catch you again soon. So until then, see you later. Bye-bye.