UK Pubs & Indie Breweries: What’s Next? with CAMRA Chairman Ash Corbett-Collins

Martin (00:00)
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Beer Rep Chats with and today I'm delighted to be joined again by chairman for CAMRA Ash. Ash, thank you very much for joining the show and coming back. I must have made a good impression the first time round

Ash Corbett-Collins (00:13)
Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm always happy to chat.

Martin (00:15)
Awesome. It's great to have you on. So it's been, well, last time we spoke was around May, I think last year. So what's changed at CAMRA since then?

Ash Corbett-Collins (00:23)
Well, anyone who's sort been aware of kind of what CAMRA have been up to for the last year will probably already know it's a really difficult year for us. So we sort of weathered many storms,  a perfect combination of unfortunately, Great British Beer Festival was unsuccessful, not from a campaigning point of view, but just simply financially. we, think we've learned now and the announcement that we're not going to sort of do that again. What we've learned is I don't think there is a world for that sort of festival anymore.

I just don't think this very large scale festival works. Actually, the smaller regional and local ones are much more successful. And we know that's right across the industry with peers who are also organising events struggling. But we had a bit of a perfect storm because that was coupled with, unfortunately, the realisation of the size of CAMRA We've been operating as a 200,000 member organisation since COVID. So we'll get back to that point, right? And we just haven't. We've hovered around 150,000.

which is still a fantastic number of people who support and love real ale and pubs, but it's not the 50,000 extra we used to have. And unfortunately, that has financial implications. And then ultimately, we've been trying to move office at the same time. Something we've been doing for years, actually, it's very, very important because now we've moved office, our operational costs have dropped right down. But buying a property when you've not sold your last one, which was the issue, sort of ties all your money up into the new property and not re-leasing it.

Martin (01:25)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Ash Corbett-Collins (01:45)
We sort of had all of those hit last summer and it became a very difficult kind of six months to the end of 2025 where unfortunately we had to some really tough decisions. It did involve unfortunately making some of the staff redundant and really sort of having an honest conversation with ourselves about what is it CAMRA's trying to achieve and then sort of planning from there what resource do we have and how are we going to do that.

Martin (02:08)
Yeah. Was there like discussions to maybe move the Great British Beer Festival to like a smaller venue?

Ash Corbett-Collins (02:13)
So nothing was off the table. So when we originally didn't have the festival the year before last, where we had that fallow year because there were issues with the venue we previously used, we sort of said to the organisers,  find a piece of paper, where do you want to have it, what sort of festival do you want to do, and what do you think is most likely to be successful. We were open to all possibilities and then what they came up with was the NEC. Recognising that,

You know it has its foibles, it's not in the center of a city, it's not going to get that passing trade, we're to have to focus more on getting people who are planning to go and definitely making that trip. But it was ultimately probably the right choice versus some of the other venues we looked at. When we decided to cancel after last year's event, I mean, that was a really tough decision, but we did look at going, okay, what else could we do with it? But I think if you make it too small, it's sort of...

doesn't live up to its name, you sort of have to do a Great British Beer Festival that is great. Otherwise it is sort of just a normal beer festival. And then, know, we already run two festivals, I think maybe three that are larger than the Great British Beer Festival already. So Nottingham, Cambridge, Peterborough are our three sort of biggest festivals. And actually, what we've recognised is supporting those to keep growing and maybe helping other festivals to get up to that size that are existing and established is probably the right route to go

Martin (03:08)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, definitely. I always attend my regional CAMRA festival in Bexley. It's always around my birthday in May. So I always go down to that. lovely. Beautiful. ⁓ Great. Nice event. Big open space. yeah, hopefully the sun comes out as well, which makes it even better.

Ash Corbett-Collins (03:46)
That can be the

hardest thing. Some of these festivals where we have them outdoors and you know all the planning in the world and all the amazing beer and then the skies open up and it comes the rain and you go oh well it's gonna be half the attendance we expected and you just can't run for that because you know it can chuck it down in July just as much as September, October.

Martin (03:54)
Yeah

It certainly can. So, you take, you you've taken a lot of cutbacks, et cetera. So what have you used to try and improve from that, from the past year?

Ash Corbett-Collins (04:11)
So what we've sort of tried to do is focus. it's that honest conversation about what is it CAMRA can actually achieve and what are we trying to achieve? know, an organisation when it gets to 55 years old as we did not last week, the week before, you sort of just grow organically and enthusiasm of members means you start picking up bits and pieces here and there of all the different things people want to do. And you know, a lot of it does benefit pubs and benefits drinkers. And so you do it because it's a good idea. But what we did was we kind of

got the team together and we said, okay, what is it we're trying to do? What are our actual outcomes? And then what are the activities we do towards that actually on making a difference? And unfortunately, did mean, you know, some very ⁓ honest conversations about, well, X activity is really interesting and fun and people love it, but it's not actually making a difference for what CAMRA is trying to achieve. So we had to get rid of those. But we've not launched our new strategy yet. That starts in members weekend. That's coming up.

Martin (04:59)
Mm.

Ash Corbett-Collins (05:07)
in a couple of months, the next one back in St Albans and what we'll do is we'll present a membership and say this is what we're doing for the next three years, this is what we're trying to achieve. It's leaner, it's more focused but actually even though it's less we're hoping we can achieve more simply by focusing on things.

That's really important. think one of the hardest things we always have is people saying, what is it CAMRA's trying to do? Or what are you trying to achieve? And then what are you doing at the minute? And it's very easy to say, oh, that's a million things. And you try and rattle off the 20 you can remember at that one point. But actually, what I want to achieve is that not only our members, but people who know CAMRA will also sort of have a paragraph. can sort of go, I know what CAMRA's trying to do. They're trying to do this. And if it works, they achieve this. And if you can say that very succinctly.

Martin (05:29)
Mm.

Yeah.

Ash Corbett-Collins (05:49)
then people know what we're trying to do. And then when volunteers, when they give me the autonomy to go off and do things and go, right, I should do X because I know it's going to achieve towards our aim.

Martin (05:58)
Yeah, definitely. It sounds like a great plan. anything that you can tell CAMRA members what to expect at the AGM.

Ash Corbett-Collins (06:07)
Yeah, so I think, you know, without wanting to spoil it, because you've to be very careful with these things, you sort of you say too much, and then people complain that, I didn't hear it because it came through this source. So we have to make sure we tell everyone at once very carefully. no. Yeah, I think for me, what I really focus on, we came from two sides. So Tom Stainer, our chief executive, sort of a context of CAMRA strategy review. So that was looking at, you know, how do we make decisions better and talk about resources, we're going to focus really on

Martin (06:12)
you

You know, I like an exclusive ash

Ash Corbett-Collins (06:35)
Helping people to understand what exactly resources available and how that's going to work and unfortunately what isn't available and making that clearer. And then at my side and the rest of the national executive colleagues, what we focused on was our campaigning. actually, so we looked at and it's not wholesale change. So it is saying, okay, we want to campaign for drinkers. What are the three things, know, things like draft duty relief that needs to be protected and then it increased to help pubs that needs to be about getting VAT relief.

business rates. None of these things are new, but they're things we really need to focus on. And what I will say is, you know, we've recognised and we're still definitely going to do festivals. And actually, I think there's going be more focus on festivals.  it used to be that festivals were a thing we did alongside. And what we've recognised is, no, no, no, that's where we make most of the money that we use them for campaigning. And it's where we do the most recruitment. So we absolutely have to have festivals front and centre as something we encourage and help branches to do. So I'm hoping what people experience is...

they get a bit more clarity on what they're trying to achieve and then also the support they can get to do it.

Martin (07:35)
Yeah, and obviously, because you're not doing the Great British Beer Festival, all the money that you would normally use for that, you can pump into advertising for the smaller festivals and get them get them really live and doing well. ⁓ We're going to get a touch a bit on ⁓

Ash Corbett-Collins (07:44)
Exactly.

Martin (07:52)
you know, choice ⁓ of beers in pubs, independents as well as ⁓ publicly owned ones, ⁓ independent pubs as well as ⁓ ones owned by pubco's, brewers, etc. ⁓ Do you think the illusion of choice in pubs is still a problem at the moment?

Ash Corbett-Collins (08:10)
think it's a huge problem. Whenever I speak at any sort of events, like BeerX the other week, things like that, access to market and the illusion of choice is probably the phrase that I use most because I think that is one of, if not the biggest problem that consumers particularly are facing at the moment. I know there was a study last year, I think it was with SIBA where they got stats that said three quarters of drinkers say that a pub serving local beer is one most important things they can do.

But unfortunately, brewers then told them that 60 % of pub lines are just not accessible to them. So there is a disconnect there. We've got consumers saying they want to drink local and drink independent and have choice. And we've got brewers saying they can't provide that. And so one of those has to give. Unfortunately, at the moment, it's consumers who are rightly voting at their feet sometimes and saying, well, I can't get the interesting beers I want to have, so I'm not going to go down the pub.

I prefer it the other way around where brewers are able to sell what they want and publicans can buy what they know their drinkers want to have so they can thrive. So yeah, it's a really difficult problem at the moment. And I think that's been one of the successes recently though in sort of bringing attention to that. Because I think a couple of years ago, if you just said to people, oh, you the illusion of choice and do you think you're to get good quality independent beers? I think they'd have said, yeah, yeah, there's plenty on at my local. There's, you know, a couple of interesting casks and a couple of interesting kegs.

But I think we're starting to get ground there saying, actually, that isn't choice because those brands are all owned by the same conglomerate that's bought them up. Or that's the global brewer who's pretending to give you choice by using the name of an Indie or a local that they bought up. ⁓ People sometimes approach me and they say, isn't there too many breweries? That's the problem. The market became saturated. And it's entirely the opposite.

Martin (09:47)
Yeah.

Ash Corbett-Collins (09:57)
There is the market there from the drinkers point of view that they want to drink independent beer Their problem is they don't have the access to do that. Brewers can't sell it and they can't buy it and that's the problem.

Martin (10:07)
Yeah, exactly. Everyone likes to pop into their local. They don't want to have to keep going to different pubs to find these independent beers. So they just end up staying at the local, drinking the same global rubbish and yeah, never get a chance to experience. Probably don't even know half or even 75 % of independent breweries that are out there. They don't even know they exist. And that's the really sad point about it.

Ash Corbett-Collins (10:27)
Yes.

It's a huge problem. we

know there's a lot of them in Birmingham and we know Birmingham is one of the cities that actually really struggles with access to market. We've got some fantastic brewers,  four or five, maybe a couple more, small independents that have come up from people doing it as a hobby and they've built up and they've got a taproom. And yes, you see that beer sometimes, particularly in restaurants, seems to be actually quite good at going, okay, we'll have one of their beers on. But when it comes to the pubs, because it was traditionally a city that was sort of controlled by one or two the national brewers.

there just still isn't access because those pubs are now owned by the pubco's who don't want to really give space on the bar to what they see as competition.

Martin (11:07)
Yeah, we'll touch on that a bit later on on how, know, independents we how we can find a common ground with with them, globals and pub companies to get more access to market for independent breweries. We're touching that a bit later on. So don't go away. Do you think that independents are gaining ground?

Ash Corbett-Collins (11:23)
think they're trying. think there has been, they're gaining ground in people's minds, which unfortunately doesn't pay the bills. I think when it comes to actually gaining ground on taps and hand pulls around the country, unfortunately not, because I think for every time they take a step forward and sort of get some success, one of the globals comes along and buys two or three of them and suddenly it's two steps backwards. know, yeah.

Martin (11:48)
Yeah, or the government smash

up business rates and stuff to make it even harder.

Ash Corbett-Collins (11:52)
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

everything seems to be, you know, I can't remember the name, that Greek mythology is where it's pushing the thing of the hill forever. I think that's what it feels like to be, you know, either side of the bar, if you're a public and a brewer or consumer, you sort of go, I'm trying to just get the thing I want. I'm doing my best efforts. I'm trying to brew a really good beer. I'm trying to sell it. I'm trying to sell it in my pub. drinkers want to have and drinkers just want to go drink it. And they sort of go, no, here's another thing to make it worse. And it just keeps snowballing.

Martin (12:19)
Yeah, the cards are definitely not in our favour at the moment. But hopefully that will change. ⁓ Who knows? ⁓ talking about obviously, there are lot of different trade organisations, all representing their different clients. You've got the BBPA, the BII, SIBA UK hospitality, yourselves, just to name a few. How hard is it to find a common ground for what's best for pubs and hospitality as a whole?

Ash Corbett-Collins (12:42)
think it's not hard to find a common ground. It's sometimes harder to find a common solution. So we have regular conversations and there's organisations we work very closely with in that sort of sphere. And there's ones we sort of keep friendly relations with just to see what they're thinking and stuff like that. And particularly last year when it came to the business rates in the budget and that shock that we got, everyone was straight away sort of almost singing from the same hymn sheet saying, no, that's a problem. That's not what should be happening.

this is going to have so many unintended consequences from the government, that it's just disastrous. Yeah, what becomes difficult is then all trying to agree on what the solution is, because they've all got a different idea. And that's fine. I'm not saying that anyone's solution is correct or that they can't sort of complement one another. And when you think about more pub-based ones,

Martin (13:14)
Effects everyone, doesn't it?

Ash Corbett-Collins (13:33)
They want pubs to stay open regardless and often sometimes the answer is that actually might be selling more global macro lagers and things like that because they'll go, well, look, they sell a billion pints of that every year in this country. If we can get more of that in and less tax on that, then we can sell 2 billion of them and that keep pubs afloat, which is great if you're just trying to keep pubs open. But when it comes to CAMRA, we want pubs open but serving interesting local quality beers. So we've got a slightly different solution where we say, no, what we need is support in this way.

We never tend to fall out of the organisations. It's always conversations in a camaraderie spirit and trying to get to the same sort of conclusion. yeah, where we find common ground, and SIBA is a good example where we've worked incredibly closely with them for last 18 months, two years, because I think we're sort of almost fighting for exactly the same thing because that independent local side of things is important to them as well. Whereas other organisations, it's a little bit more of a...

We'll let you know what we're doing. They let us know what they're doing. And if we can support one another, great, we'll amplify it.

Martin (14:31)
Yeah, it's always, yeah, like he said, finding a solution where everyone's happy. Unless things change. it's one of things, isn't it? mean, we can fight as much as we want, but it's also you have to find that solution, that common solution, which unfortunately everyone has to be happy, not just what we want.

Ash Corbett-Collins (14:48)
Yeah, that's really important because

I have conversations with people and they say, no, no, no, we can't compromise. have to go for the very, very best solution for CAMRA. And I get that because pubs are a passionate thing. None of us do this because of facts on a page or statistics. We do it because we're passionate about pubs and beer. So the emotion comes into that and I can understand why they then want the very best solution. But unfortunately, if you

If we deviate too much and you have all these different organisations shouting about very different things at the government, you then struggle about which one is the government going to listen to. And unfortunately, the locals, the independents and the consumer side of things doesn't have the money in the pull of the big global organisations or those representing those with a lot of ⁓ power. So we have to find the compromises where we go, okay, what is it they might be more amenable to? And maybe we'll go down that route.

And sometimes it is being honest and saying, we disagree on this and we're going to come out and say this, you know, be friends afterwards or at least go for a beer maybe not friends. But, you know, you find a pick your battles, which is going to work. Where do we need to make a compromise to ultimately get as best a deal as we can for consumers and publicans and brewers

Martin (15:56)
Yeah, definitely. So where you're seeing where what's working at the moment, what's working right now ⁓ in these sort of conversations? mean, obviously, business rates, everyone's on the same hymn sheet as you said, ⁓ with that. But is there any other areas that are working at the moment?

Ash Corbett-Collins (16:12)
Working, yes, in the sense of we're talking, we've not achieved much yet. It's difficult to say, well, is that working? You sort of go, well, ask me in two or three years time if we've made a difference. I think what's working is that openness. think when I first got involved in this sort of thing, there was a lot, not hostility, but maybe a sort of apprehension about working with each other you'd sort of, conversations would be very, very high level.

particularly at lower levels of volunteer level or even just members of the public, they saw it as a very disparate industry and people sort of arguing with each other. I think what is working is yeah, working together a little bit more and accepting that,  we either work together and get some sort of solution or we don't. So I think there's movement. I wouldn't say it's successful yet until we see some successes.

Martin (16:45)
Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. Do you think we're at risk of losing them more pubs this year?

Ash Corbett-Collins (17:02)
Yes, that's a really sad answer. And I hate saying that so definitively, but absolutely. all those things we just talked about, consumers not being able to get what they want and publicans not being able to sell what they want, which makes people less likely to go to pubs because you go out to get the thing you want. And then alongside that, all those things like business rates and stuff that are making it harder to run a pub or brewery. And then I think on top of that, one of the things we've seen recently is actually the government wants to

forgot the word,  dilute, dilute is the word I'm looking for. The government is looking to dilute the planning protection for pubs. So previously, one of the things CAMRA worked really hard for, one of successes, was making it really hard to convert a pub into another use. So even if it closed or anything like that, to convert it to a different use, you have to demonstrate and jump through quite a few pubs, which has kept so many pubs in England open. And when we had the conversation actually with the Welsh government about what should they be doing about planning.

we'd sort of pointed and said, well, England's got it right.  look at how the rate of pub closures and conversions has plummeted the moment that protection came in. But unfortunately, in a sort of trying to help the high street and get an easy fix to the housing crisis, the government is looking to water that right down and remove that protection and actually only have it for the last pub in a town or village. And so, you know, if you've got five pubs, four of them could very, very easily be converted and we could see what we call the...

Martin (18:17)
Yeah. Yeah, right about

Ash Corbett-Collins (18:24)
the tour of destruction that was happening, was it 15, 20 years ago, where pubs were just overnight almost closed and turned into a flat or an HMO or a supermarket or something like that. And there was nothing the local community could really do to stop it. So what we as CAMRA has done, we've got a ⁓ mail shop that people can go on our website and email their local MP directly using that. I think that, other than all the other things we talked about, that's the other big fight that we've got.

Martin (18:49)
Yeah, definitely. Right. So it's come to the time of the podcast where we've introducing a new feature to the podcast where listeners can submit a voice recording question to the current guest that's on. Sorry that you're the first one, Ash. Don't look too nervous. Yeah. So our very, very first question on this new feature is from David Law and he is asking...

Given that 80 % of the beer supply market in the UK is controlled by four of the world's global brewers, pubs and microbreweries are closing down in unprecedented numbers. Why is it that Camera haven't issued a super complaint for market review to the CMA?

Ash Corbett-Collins (19:31)
So it's a really good question. CAMRA has this super complaint status. It's something that we were really proud to attain when we did a number of years ago. And it's a really powerful tool. What we're being careful when we consider using it is it's a very powerful but quite a blunt tool. And so what people might not be aware of, but what we've been trying to shout about is in the budget in 2024, I think it was, at back end of that year, the government announced an access to market review.

very last minute because we had no idea what's happening and normally we get a of a ⁓ private message or a quiet word about what might be going in the budget for us. And what we understand is it was a very late addition by an MP who sort of pushed for it and heard what we were asking for and said, yes, there is a problem with the access to market. Can we do something? And it sort of got put into there And so we spent all the 2025 feeding into that as well as other organisations, SIBA and others also fed into this review.

and trying to make the argument that yes, there's absolutely an access to market problem, which is one of the major concerns for why pubs are shutting and things like that. So what we do know, what we've heard is that review has been done, it's been completed, and it just hasn't been announced. And we're waiting on that. So it's been delayed because there was a reshuffle in the summer last year. When was it? At some point, I think the summer last year.

And unfortunately, government moves as slow as people might expect. So once there's been a reshuffle and a new minister gets in charge, they've got so many things on their desk. And we know that this access to market is on their desk and they've got completing priorities. So our argument for the last couple of months, the last year was, this is still a priority. This is a problem. It's not going to go away. You need to publish the outcome of that and tell us what you think, because that can go one of a number of ways. From how we understand the access to market reviews being done,

What will essentially happen is if there is a problem, which we are very have to admit the argument that there is, and if they agree and the review says, yep, we recognise there's a problem, then that might then set into motion that they will ask things like the CMA or other organisations within the government, what is it we need to do? What actions can we take to start resolving that problem? They'll start putting a plan together for that. And that's the hope we have.

If they turn around and say, no, we don't recognise a problem, know, we've spoken to you, but actually we think people still get a choice and don't worry about it. Well, then CAMRA can go back and start thinking about what's our next step. And then, you know, the conversation might include, do we consider using the super complainant status alongside going back and talk to those, all those other organisations we get on with and say, what can we do together to fix this? Cause clearly the government hasn't listened. So you sort of go back and go, what's the next step? trouble is if we use our super complaining status now, we sort of.

tank that possible thing because it will trump that access to market review. So at the minute, we're still in a holding pattern and waiting to see what comes from that. But we always keep it that we know how important that tool is. We know when we have conversations with government, actually, it's very good to say, we think there's a problem with X. And you sort of wink, wink, nudge, nudge, and remember that if you don't sort of look into it, we can just force you to look into it. And often we found the that sort of that.

not a threat, but just pointing out that we have that possibility usually gets things moving in the way we want.

Martin (22:47)
Yeah, I mean, obviously, if the CMA did find a problem, ⁓ which they should do, is there anything else that can kind of squash that where they can't do anything? ⁓ I.e, you know, MROs or the PCA?

Ash Corbett-Collins (23:01)
I'm not aware, no. I think the hardest part actually is government priority. So I don't think there's anything that would stop them, but I think they could easily say, yes, we recognise there's a problem, but that's not important right now. When we've had conversations with government and ministers and civil servants, when we have got them to admit there's a problem, sometimes they'll say yes, but, and the but is usually, the big one last year was tickets. When Oasis tickets came out and there was that.

accusations of price gouging and things like that. They said, no, for a government that's a quick win. They can turn around and say, look, there's a big media problem there. If we resolve that and say we fixed ticket prices, great, we've got to win. So I can see why they've got other priorities. They're a government. They've got a million and one things to look about and think about. Our job is to say, no, ours is the biggest priority. And that's what our job is.

Martin (23:52)
Yeah, so basically looking for quick wins to make them look good, rather than taking on something that might take a bit longer because it's a complex.

Ash Corbett-Collins (23:59)
Yeah, it's

that impact, it? Any organisation when they're looking at what do you do, they should really look at do people feel if we resolve this that there's an impact there. And I can understand them picking the things, particularly as a government that is not the most popular, picking the things that do that sort of is it, know, common is it like grocery economics, the sort of things that make you feel like you've got a bit more money in your pocket and that you're being listened to, which is very easy with things like that, as opposed to, we're to resolve a

Martin (24:23)
Yeah.

Ash Corbett-Collins (24:27)
complex thing in pub industry which you might not even notice is a problem, which is again, is where CAMRA's job as an educator is to say there really is a problem. If we can mobilise our 150,000 members to know there's a problem and the millions of pubgoers tell them there's a problem, then that's several million people that can turn around to their local MP in the government and say there's a problem and I want you to fix it. And that's how you get it high up the agenda.

Martin (24:50)
Yeah, definitely. I think key is getting the consumers or drinkers ⁓ aware ⁓ of the issue and actually stepping back and thinking, ⁓ why am I drinking this same beer and why is it everywhere?

Ash Corbett-Collins (25:02)
Yeah, it's similar in price.

know, one of the things I've really been passionate about changing is changing people's argument of, ⁓ I'm paying five, six, seven pounds a pint sometimes in places. Oh it's because the publicans ripping me off or the breweries ripping me off. We used to have this thing where everyone just thought, not everyone, but a lot of people thought, know, key keg beers, which typically brew a little bit more. It's the breweries knowing they can get away with charging more. And I've never met other than ⁓

former brewer and owner James Watt. I've never particularly met a millionaire brewer or a publican. And they sort of go in and said, it's a passion thing. And they're all doing it sometimes at not very good wages at all because they're so passionate about it. No one's making a mint out of brewing or publican pubs particularly. So what we've been trying to change is actually educating people on why the price of your pint is so much. Yes, we recognise as a consumer organisation that we knew six, seven years ago that most Brits thought

price were too much. But you can't fix that by just demanding breweries charge less or pubs charge less. It's educating people actually. So much of your pint is made up of all these different things that they've got no control over. And so you have to pay that for it to be a viable business, but recognising that it's not a viable business if your consumers can't afford to pay that. And how do we work together to resolve that issue?

Martin (26:18)
Yeah, exactly. Micro pubs are thriving though. I think, you know, speaking to at beerX, speaking to a member of CAMRA, micro pubs are the ones that are keeping independent cask alive, because they obviously they're independents themselves. Do you think they're kind of a saving grace for independent breweries and being able to give that choice of cask beer to drinkers?

Ash Corbett-Collins (26:40)
I think so, yeah. I'm going to sound like a broken record, but it goes back to that demonstrating that if you give people the drinks that they want and they're asking for, then the pub thrives and survives. Yes, micro pubs have some other sort of benefits from usually lower sort of overheads and stuff, which might make them a bit more viable. But ultimately, it comes down to micro pubs, when they first started all those years ago and became successful, it's because people went...

great. There's a place where I go and they're usually serving three or four, if not more interesting beers. And it's a sort of other one to go into where maybe everything around them had these tied lines and they can now only get national brands or even international brands. And they just wanted to drink something local and interesting. And Micro pubs popped up to answer that question. So the market does come up with answers if it's allowed to. When those planning permission laws were changed, Micro pubs became much easier to open and they suddenly just popped up all over the country.

Martin (27:24)
Yeah.

Ash Corbett-Collins (27:34)
it was because there was a demand and they're successful and they're still amazing because there is a demand. So in my mind, it seems very simple. Give pubs the choice and then they'll thrive better. For every pub that's closed down by a pub co or something like that and they go, it wasn't viable anymore. And then you speak to the people in the area and they say, yeah, it became ran down. Maybe it wasn't kept up as much because it wasn't invested in. But the other part they would say is,

know, the beers were a bit rubbish. You know, I could only drink X and Y and Z, major brands, least give them the option. If they've got the option to buy what they want, or at least a little bit of the bar, and buy what they want, and serve that, then they've got a chance of survival, and Micro-Pubs have proved it.

Martin (28:17)
Yeah, definitely be something to use as an example to give your, you know, why access to market is needed because the, the proof is in the pudding, you know, micro pubs are doing amazing by selling independent beer, cask beer. If it was on a bigger scale in bigger pubs, it would have the same effect and pubs will thrive again because there's more option on the bar.

Ash Corbett-Collins (28:37)
I think the example of that is Wetherspoons, which I know is not everyone's cup of tea, but I tend to visit one every so often. quite like it. And the reason I go in and reason plenty of people go in is because they often have a really good choice of independent beer. I visited one on my way up to the BeerX the one at Birmingham New Street Station. Popped in for a quick pint while I was waiting for a train. And there was four or five independent beers. I was able to check on SIBA's website and say, yeah, this is definitely an independent beer. Who it is? Because I've not heard of them.

great, I'll take that one, went and sat over a pint and drank it in there. And you know, it's great. And I spoke to brewers who do, you I know some brewers don't like Wetherspoons but the ones that do often say, actually it gives them the opportunity to get out to market and buying at scale in a way that actually helps them survive.

Martin (29:18)
Yeah, think, I think speaking to a lot of people that have got their beers into Wetherspoons, they don't really make any money, if anything, they're losing money, but you kind of look at it as a way of, this is great advertising for our brewery Yes, we're going to take a hit, but we're going to get our beers out to over X amount of pubs that Wetherspoons own. And that is a tool that you can't really put a price on. would say, and to be honest, Wetherspoons, their cellars are amazing. They keep their cask beer really good. I know this because I've worked for them

from

15 years myself so yeah not my choice of pub to go to but I know if I do go in there for a cask beer it's going to be of high quality and it's not going to be off and it's going to be managed and kept well so yeah so what's exciting you most in UK at the moment in beer wise what's exciting you?

Ash Corbett-Collins (30:05)
the really difficult questions I've sort of spent all this time talking about what's not going well and you know what I don't actually like being a negative campaigner it's a really difficult thing because I think if you spend too much time telling people it's all doom and gloom and all the pubs are gonna close and all the beers could be rubbish people sort of lose hope and go I'll just stay at home then what's the point it's never gonna be fixed and it's a bit like them you know when people talk about the environment and if you say well the planet's

Martin (30:11)
Yeah.

No.

Yeah, exactly.

Ash Corbett-Collins (30:32)
done for if we go one degree over and you all feel a helpless and don't really do anything. I think the same with hugs. So I do try to be positive. From a very sort of internal view, the last 12 months I've been really excited by CAMRA Northern Ireland. we recently, well, a year or so ago, we turned that into a region on its own. It used to be coupled with Scotland. Not really very fairly. They're you the same place. They're not connected. Yes, transport might be slightly better, but...

They're very distant. But we decoupled those, get them that autonomy and actually they've really flown in terms of demonstrating what can be done when you give people that autonomy. So for people not familiar, Northern Ireland has some very draconian licensing laws. ⁓ So you can only get it, it's called the surrender principle, where you can only get a new license if a pub closes and they sell that on or something like that. You can't just go and open a pub like you can in the rest of the United Kingdom.

Martin (31:25)
Yeah, and the licensing fees

are expensive as well, aren't they? Over there.

Ash Corbett-Collins (31:29)
Yes, they're incredibly expensive.

They're all majority owned by the global players who don't want to give them up because why would they want to give up space to the competition? And it's all sort of come about for a very historical reason of not a great place. There's no benefit to this system. I can't see, and CAMRA's argument has always been there's no benefit to it. It doesn't benefit choice. It doesn't benefit consumers. It's not that suddenly if you open it up, it'll result in a pub on every corner and everyone being drunk out of their face 99 % of the time because that's not how it is in rest of countries

Yeah, we've got our argument against it, but giving them that sort of autonomy, they've been able to really push back on it. Unfortunately, we didn't get the result we wanted when it was put to the Northern Ireland Assembly, but they have been really good at kind of activating members and getting them to volunteer and to run a brilliant beer festival and educate people in Belfast about this problem and drive people to campaign. So it's not a success yet, but it's been a real sort of...

catalyst for potential future success. That really excites me from a CAMRA point of view. I think from a general beer point of view, I think what we talked about in terms of people just being aware in general, is maybe not an exciting topic, but as I said, five years ago, chatting to people in the pub and trying to talk to them about the issues with what's going on in the market and people just didn't know, they were completely oblivious. I feel we're now at a starting point, you can talk to a lot of people in the pub or publicans and say, oh, you know,

problems. they yeah, I've heard about this in the newspapers, or I've seen the CAMRA post or a SIBA post, or wherever it might be, or listen to a podcast that's given them that sort of base knowledge. And now they're interested, they recognise the problem. So I think if we get it right, I'm excited by the possibility that in the next couple of years, we could really maybe enfranchise and empower people to make a difference.

Martin (33:12)
Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. What trends are you optimistic about? What do you, what do you think the new trends will be be? Come to end of the basics.

Ash Corbett-Collins (33:18)
Can I be really boring and say bitter?

I've seen a ⁓ little bit of an uptake in bitters sort of coming back. You know, they never went away, they always brewed but I think they're becoming a bit more popular again, particularly across generations, which I quite like, because I think five, 10 years ago, there became a thing where bitter was a really uncool and unsexy word.

and the marketing teams at some of the global brewers decided that saying bitter was never going to sell a beer because that's not a very nice word and they all started using amber and all these sort of warmer words, which I don't get because bitter is a fantastic word for a beer because that's what it is and that's what I'm looking for. So I'm really excited by the potential. It's a fledgling trend. It's just starting, but I'm seeing more brewers starting to produce it. I'm seeing talk about it online.

And so that for me, in the most sort of boring, maybe typical CAMRA way, I'm excited about Bitter coming back.

Martin (34:13)
So what should CAMRA members feel positive about in the future?

Ash Corbett-Collins (34:17)
I think that we've turned a corner. That's the positivity for me. So as last year was really difficult and I've got a lot of CAMRA members get in touch with me, you know, directly and I'm always happy people email me and say, you this is what I'm thinking or they grab me in the pub. It's great to be recognised because a lot of the time people don't, they talk about CAMRA in a very abstract way and I have to go, no, no, I'm involved. do that. But yeah, so, you know, I think when people got in touch last year with me and spoke to me,

real outpouring of emotion about disappointment and frustration the difficult year we had. I think most people recognise, you know, as much as we sort of saw the iceberg coming, when you see it, you can't do a lot to steer away from it other than sort of mitigate that. And I hope people recognise that we did as much as possible to mitigate that. We took the big and drastic measures we needed to make sure 2025 was sort of minimised the damage and in 2026 we're expecting to host a surplus as an organisation.

well into the future with that. as a business, we've sort of, I'm going to keep going, you know, we're on an even keel and I will stop using boat analogies at some point. And then that has given us that opportunity, as I said earlier, to talk about that strategy. And what I want them to be excited about is next month when I present this new strategy and we talk about exciting things CAMRA wants to achieve in the next three years, I'm hoping that they'll feel invigorated and they'll recognise and say, yes, you really kind of.

focus this down to 10, 12 points of things that will make a difference both sides of the bar in terms of choice, in terms of price, in terms of viability to these businesses and that they then feel empowered and recognise how they can get involved. I think that's the big thing. We have a lot of members and branches say, well, what is it we should be doing? And I can't tell 140 odd thousand people or 200 branches exactly what to do because it all matters what's going on in their area. They need to recognise and work it out.

So what we focused on is giving them this framework and saying, this is what we're trying to achieve as an organisation. This is the context we're working in. This is the framework for you to then go away and say, what are these things that are actually most important in our area? And what do we want to focus on and how we do that and give them the tools to do that? hopefully, they're excited to do that.

Martin (36:20)
Yeah, good. I'm looking forward to the outcome of the meeting next month ⁓ to see where you're heading. Younger drinkers starting to come back in pubs. You see a lot more of them.

Ash Corbett-Collins (36:27)
Yes,

yeah, we had a bit of doom and gloom on that, didn't we, a couple of years ago. ⁓ All the stats were Gen Z don't drink, they're never going to the pub. And to be fair, even ⁓ my wife's siblings who had just turned 18, 19, I remember we took them to the pub three or four years ago and they were buying hot chocolates and we thought, no, this. I mean, you drink what you want, you're still putting money behind the bar. We were putting money behind the bar. They often don't have their own money or hope someone else will pay.

But I was a bit worried going on. I'm seeing in real time this supposed trend of Gen Z not drinking. But yeah, the stats we've looked at suggest that actually they are starting to pick up. I think there was a growth in cask drinking in Gen Z. And they're drinking more than the previous. So that's really fantastic. And this goes back to that sort of if bitters come back and people drink cask. And that's really good. And it shows that sometimes you can't force a trend.

Um, you know, we've had years of people saying, well, how do we get them drinking, um, know, drinking more cask beer, particularly, or just going to the pub. And the trouble is if you sort of push too hard, it becomes that, um, Steve Buscemi meme of, know, how do you do fellow kids? It's sort of trying to get down with them and, and, know, do them and say, go on TikTok and do some things. they go, no, what, what Gen Z do not need to see is anyone, you know, I'm 10, 15 years older than them. Nevermind how old are some people be involved coming and telling them how cool cask beer is on TikTok.

No, you might as well tell them never drink cask beer because that's the result. But on their own, they've sort of found it and discovered it a bit like we saw Guinness last year. And I think actually, you know, we saw and see a trend on social media, I'm seeing a pubs becoming cooler again, I'm seeing so much content being created about pubs. And you know, sometimes it's a bit self deprecating or joking about pubs. That's fine. We're still talking about pubs. And sometimes it's just a genuine enthusiasm. Some of the most enthusiastic people about pubs online.

are of the younger generation. They're going in and they're making these review videos or they're talking about the beers they're drinking or even getting involved in sometimes the heritage aspects of things like that and they're finding that fascinating. yeah, you sort of, hopefully if we let them discover it themselves and we're just there ready, you know, if they want to join CAMRA and we'll make ourselves aware to them, know, there is an organisation there that's interested and we'll support you on that journey. But otherwise, if they just want to go do it on their own, I'm more than happy to go and get a couple of pints on the other.

Martin (38:43)
Yeah,

it's about creating the experience for the Gen Z generation, I think. They like an experience and they like a bit of history, like to tell a story and to their mates, oh, I went to this place, went to this pub and it's been standing since 1650 or whatever. They want that and if they've got that experience, got that story, they will do a lot more posts online about pubs.

Ash Corbett-Collins (39:07)
Exactly.

And I think maybe where we can support and other organisations is helping pubs to tell that story. know, CAMRA's got an amazing database of information on pubs. Just on our website, you can look up and put in your local and if it's got historical interest, will have that there or, you know, whether the landlady's been there 25 years or if it's traditional Irish, but whatever it might be about that building is probably on our website. And so we need to position ourselves as that kind of support, you know, either if it's straight to the people who are interested or if it's

talking back to the pubs and say,  here's all this information, here's the window to advertise yourself and get that information out there. What can we say about you? It tells a story and vice versa. What can maybe CAMRA tell you? Because you might not realise this fact from the eighties about your pub, because you weren't here. That we can tell you that you can then use to market yourself to that generation.

Martin (39:53)
Yeah, it's definitely cask is definitely is gaining traction. There's a recent MP recently, I think it was this week was it? Who mentioned cask beer being cultural heritage brought it up in Parliament. ⁓ So that was a win, I feel. ⁓ I thought that kind of

quietened down a bit since the first big massive push to make it from Johnny from the Craft Beer Channel to push it to make it cultural heritage and it seems to be gained a bit more traction now.

Ash Corbett-Collins (40:21)
Yeah, I think what we've been very successful at is making sure that we keep cask in the minds of MPs and things like that. They can get very, as I said, there's a lot of things, they can get very easily distracted about whatever is today's front page headline. And you're right, when Johnny was working on fantastic campaign, we saw a lot of people talking about pubs and beer, and then it went quiet. And then when the budget came out and it was all in the front pages, and then it goes quiet again, but there's something else comes along.

Unfortunately, particularly with things like business rates, did feel like the government sort of went, well, let's see what we can get away with giving them. And if we just wait, it will move on and we'll talk about something else. that unfortunately feels the way. it's never quite gone away. And that's what we do when we do our campaigning. We talk to lawmakers and things like that. We always say, keep just pushing the cause of why it's so important to people. And that's why it's been fantastic when they bring it up. As I said before, the bit in the budget about the access to market review.

because of a conversation someone had with an MP and said this is a problem and that stuck in their mind and then they eventually you know however many months or even years later mentioned it to the Treasury said no I want that in there because that's important that's one person moving that along and getting that done this yeah this week talking about the heritage thing just keeps it in people's mind keeps it people talking about it keeps it in the decision-making chain so we can we can make a difference so yeah it's absolutely fantastic when they talk about it.

Martin (41:39)
Yeah.

What's another example of great cask beer you've had recently?

Ash Corbett-Collins (41:43)
I'm going to give a big shout out to the Craven Arms in Birmingham, first of all, It came second in our public year competition this year and John, who runs the place with his family, he just had his 70th birthday and they had a, we combined it. So he had a 70th birthday party that he'd done a bit of a tap take over his favourite beers. And then we did our pub of the year silver presentation to him on the same day. And yeah, the beers were fantastic.

It was just, it is a really good example of just what classic cask beer sort of is. Even if the beer is sometimes a bit interesting, know, Bathams have one of the big massive Bathams on, but then you would have it alongside a really interesting stout or something like that. And in this pub that is a historically interesting and important pub run by Black Country Ales. So it was just a really good beer with really good friends. And it's sort of why I do this. It can get really difficult at my end of camp.

It feels like all I do is meetings and emails and not really actually drinking a lot of beer because you've got to be sober and make big decisions. Yeah, so no, I just took years off drinking basically while I do this. I'll get to go back to the front one. Yeah. But yeah, so you when I get a chance to do that and it was just a really good night, we're really good friends, really good beer and a really good pub And for me, that stood out. The other one I thought was beer X.

Martin (42:39)
And that's supposed to be the best part,

I'm T Total.

Ash Corbett-Collins (43:01)
in Liverpool the other week for that. you know, when you've got all these amazing brewers in one room and a lot of them have got their beers on the bar, that's central in the exhibition hall, it's fantastic to see so much cask on there and so many interesting and good quality casks from a lot of smaller independent brewers because yes, it's been harder. Some of the brewers I used to see in pubs 10 years ago, 15 years ago when I started drinking casks, I don't see as much anymore because they're not getting out to market.

Martin (43:16)
was amazing.

Ash Corbett-Collins (43:29)
I use the example of Tiny Rebel. I can't remember the last time I saw Tiny Rebel on cask. And yet, when I turned 18, 19, 20, maybe a little older, I remember Tiny Rebel being everywhere. And then it sort of disappeared and then you don't see as much variance. So to see so many brewers bringing so much cask and really being passionate about it, for me, you know, I didn't drink cask all night. I like all beers, but I drank plenty of it as well.

Martin (43:51)
Yeah. What was your, what was your favourite cask get beer X.

Ash Corbett-Collins (43:53)
I'm terrible for detail.

Martin (43:56)
There

was one that stood out for me. It was a grain brewery, Slate, think it was called. It was beautiful, 6%. And I didn't even know it was 6 % until I had my third helping of it. And I was like, okay, maybe I better slow down a bit on this one.

Ash Corbett-Collins (44:02)
Okay.

Yeah,

I think I would have to be careful though, like that, the events like that, so I spoke at five o'clock and so when I first got there I drank the No & Low's and it was something that was 3.8 I think was the highest I went beforehand, know, very good table beer and so then yeah, it was only afterwards that I started dabbling with the stronger stuff.

Martin (44:29)
Yeah, there's definitely some beautiful beers there at BeerX. Better than last year, the quality was amazing, I feel. So we're to end up on this final question. What should CAMRA drinkers and anyone in particular listeners be excited about when it comes to cask beer?

Ash Corbett-Collins (44:43)
I think that everyone should be excited about how passionate everyone is. I think this conversation today and what's been going on in the industry and all these people starting to talk together and work together and actually recognise that we need to work together is a really exciting thing because it's not the disparate competing ⁓ priority that it used to be. We now all start to recognise that.

might only have one chance to really make a difference. If we keep arguing or keep just doing slightly different things, we might not get what we want. We're recognising we've got to work together. So I hope that people are really excited by the fact that everyone who cares recognises what we need to do and how we need to work together. And so I think this is probably, even though things are tougher than they have been, I think in many years, other than the pandemic, I think this is actually a really exciting potential for us to make a difference if we work together.

Martin (45:36)
Yeah, and a bit of patience as well, think I feel is needed a bit of patience.

Ash Corbett-Collins (45:39)
Yes, yeah, Rome wasn't built in a day. do get that a lot,

you know, it's a, isn't this fixed? And I go, well, because I don't have a magic wand. If I could, you know, I would, I'd do it immediately. And trust me, everyone who knows about this problem knows it's a problem, but you can't force the government to make the changes you need. You can't force pubcos to make the changes you need. All these different elements, you know, you just need to work on them.

Martin (45:47)
Exactly,

Ash Corbett-Collins (46:00)
little by little and that's the campaigning style CAMRA takes. do get some people who say, you need to be even more combative. When I took over I said we need to be a bit more combative. to be, we can't accept little crumbs of success. It needs to be bigger actual needle moving things and hopefully that's what we've started to work towards. But people are still pushing this and they well you need to be even more combative. You need to push back. need to tell them they're wrong. And I do see other campaigners who

I don't mind that they take the position of they get to the ones who maybe say them the meaner words and they're a little bit more combative and then, know, I think that's good at generating awareness of an issue. But CAMRA sort of positions itself as we need to keep your enemies close or even your enemies, the people you need to change the minds of. You don't want them to feel ostracised by you. You don't want them to feel that you don't want to have a conversation with them. We need to be able to sit down, even if it is no

the pubcos who might not be doing things we like sometimes, or the government who might not have made the budget decisions we like. We need to dialogue. It's dialogue telling them why they're making the wrong decision, why it's not in their interest, not even not in our interest, not in their interest what they're trying to do, because long term it's going to cause a problem, whatever it might be, and convince them. And if we can't convince them, going in and finding the levers we can pull at a government level and making policy changes that force people to do the things that will benefit us. But again, you only get that by keeping people on your side.

Martin (47:19)
Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. Do you want to wrap up anything you want to mention before we call it a day?

Ash Corbett-Collins (47:28)
I think the only thing I'll really push is just keep going to your local CAMRA beer festival. So we announced at the start of the year that all CAMRA members now get free entry to CAMRA beer festivals. What we're hoping is that will drive people to join CAMRA. So if you're not a member of CAMRA, you think that's a fantastic deal because it is 30 quid a year and you get free entry to 200 festivals around the country if you've got the time and the patience to do that. So yeah, you're saving, even if you go to

Martin (47:52)
Exactly that, yeah, if you've got the time.

Ash Corbett-Collins (47:56)
or five festivals or you go to your local festival three times or something, you're probably already making a saving there. So I think that's a really exciting policy in terms of encouraging people to keep going down and enjoying the festival. So if you're not a member, do join. If you are a member, go and enjoy that. There's a little caveat you might have to check and book beforehand just so can make sure they've got room for you to check the local branch website with everyone, your social media for the details. yeah, free festival entry everywhere is our new exciting policy. So go and enjoy that and drink as many weird and wonderful beers as you

is moderately effective. Okay, Otherwise, if people are coming to Members Weekend or think about coming to Members Weekend or if you're a CAMRA member and want to join and come to Members Weekend, then again, that's going be really exciting time at St Albans. If you're in the area and you're not a member, I'm sure you can take part because the team we're organising have basically turned it into the City of ale. St Albans is being turned over and all the pubs are running events. There's beer festivals basically in every pub.

Martin (48:28)
Drink responsibily, thats the one Ish.

Ash Corbett-Collins (48:54)
live bands every night and there's meet the brewers and trips. It's fantastic. It's the most exciting members weekend I've ever seen. For all the stuff outside the hall, there is the, you know, we do the conference and the AGM and stuff, people come to that. But even if you just want to come to the city, not as a CAMRA member, maybe adjacent, you live in the area and you've always wondered, come along and enjoy the exciting events and that should be fantastic as well.

Martin (49:14)
Awesome. Have you got all the fringe events going around St Albans up on the site as well?

Ash Corbett-Collins (49:18)
Yeah, if you go on the main CAMRA website or I think even if you just Google St Albans City of Ale they've got their own dedicated website and some things you might need to book. I think there's even like museum talks that you can go to about history. It's so diverse, it's really exciting and I think it goes to show what we can do when we make events more exciting and accessible because I think we're going to see a really high uptake of people attending this year.

Martin (49:42)
Awesome. Yep. And if you do want to become a member of CAMRA, check out the description below. The links will be there for you to have a look. ⁓ Ash, I think that's it. We call it time. Many thanks for coming back on the show. we'll make it a threesome next year. And we'll come back this time next year and see the progress that CAMRA's made and hopefully what the government have made as well. yeah, we'll have you back next year. Awesome.

Okay, cheers. Thank you for everyone who's been listening. Don't forget to like, subscribe, follow, share. Yeah, until a couple of weeks time, we'll see you again soon. yeah, till then, cheers. Bye bye.