Building a Brewery on Passion with Ross Gandon of Swallow Brew Co

Martin (00:00)
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Beer Rep chats with and today I am delighted to be joined by founder of Swallow Brew co Ross Gandon Ross, thank you for joining the show. It's great to have you on. Yeah, mate. Yeah. So you're, you're based in Folkestone, I believe in Kent.

Ross (00:12)
No problem, thank you for having me. Thank you for having me.

We are

a bit of a secluded, well a bit of a private location so we're keeping that under wraps but we are on the periphery of Folkestone at the moment yeah.

Martin (00:28)
Awesome. So where did the idea for Swallow Brew Co come about and what made you think that this is the right time to launch the brewery?

Ross (00:35)
Well actually we moved premises personally and we actually moved into a quite nice place with stables so quite fortunate that although they're dilapidated they were full of swallows and we just had a year of actually taking stock of our lives and relaxing and enjoying the space which hasn't really happened we've always been really sort of hundred miles an hour and

Martin (00:49)
Okay.

Ross (01:00)
We were in the throes of creating a new brewery anyway and I wanted something that's slightly tongue-in-cheek and it just fitted the bill and it was beautiful to see these things as they are. They've literally just come back from South Africa now. I think we just did our first one yesterday. yeah, nature lovers and beer lovers and it just kind of worked.

Martin (01:21)
Yeah, I love seeing the birds. We've got, we're getting quite a lot of birds coming outside in our garden as well. saw a Jaybird recently. I've never actually seen one of them in the, the, in the wild and they're not very common around here, but yeah, that was pretty cool to see. So what was she doing before Swallow You know, what did it, did it influence the brewery at all? What you did before?

Ross (01:26)
Yeah. Nice.

Yeah, it did actually.

So I've been involved with a few breweries in one professional capacity or another. And from starting quite small, it was tough. It was properly tough. mean, angels and demons, unfortunately, we lost the battle in Covid. Coming out of Covid, it was really hard for everyone. you know, everyone knows that. This isn't a new story. But unfortunately, we couldn't sustain it and we pumped so much money into it.

Martin (02:07)
Yeah.

Ross (02:10)
and it was losing a lot of money. So we kind of learned from those mistakes. We started again and McCann's Brewery, which bought Twisted Wheel as well from up north, was doing really well in Covid. So they're over in another location in Tenterden big host, big investment. And Keith's now running that, who was then my business partner. He's now running it, he's taking the reins on that. And best of luck to him because he's a great guy and they've got great products.

He spent a lot of time and money to be perfectly open with you. So, you know, I really, really hope it works. But for me, it was getting too big. It was beyond me and it was time to step away. And, you know, as much as it was a hardship because McCann's is my mum's maiden name and it was kind of a big thing. To be honest with you, if it succeeds, I'm really proud of that. And being part of that was, yeah, I'd be delighted for the guys over there.

best luck to them and hopefully we'll do a collaboration at some point with a Twisted Wheel and McCann's or Angels and Demons because they've got a lot over there now so that's kind of where I've been that's kind of my journey and going back into what felt like home brew after being on a 45 barrel kit we've now got an 8 barrel kit with a small kit called R2D2 which gets us to about 10 barrels so I'm loving it

to be honest it's great I'm having loads of fun Joe who was our original brewer from Angels & Demons he comes and gets involved sometimes and honestly it just feels like we're in pots and pans again in the kitchen with my other half you know pulling her hair out because we're making such a mess in the kitchen it feels like that again it feels fun and that was always the intention in the first place we tried to make it professionally work and it is hard I mean for anyone out there they know they know they know the deal

Martin (03:57)
Yeah.

Ross (04:06)
It is hard. So we're kind of on the cusp of that again, but as I say, having fun with it.

Martin (04:06)
Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. think having fun is the main thing, isn't it? If you're not enjoying it anymore, then it's kind of, you kind of have to question, am I doing this? Why am I doing this still? And what's the reason why it's not fun no more? And yeah, if you're scaling back and doing things that you enjoy, that's the way to go, isn't it, I suppose, for you personally?

Ross (04:20)
Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah, and it allows us to

be freer with the ingredients. sort of touching on this base before we started recording, the way we operate is essentially our brew house is twice the size of all of our fermenters. And we've done that on purpose because every brew day we can do about 1500 litres. We split that out. So if we've got...

different ideas, different sets of hops, or whatever, there's loads of things you can do, it's endless, of course it is. So we end up with two new beers every time, and we do learn from some of the beers that we've been producing, and we probably will produce something similar, but we're not gonna do those again. It keeps it really fresh, and it keeps it craft. You know, we're not Heineken it, we don't wanna be, we wanna actually enjoy this ride And so, this time around, we're gonna do exactly just that. We've got two main...

Martin (05:19)
Exactly.

Ross (05:24)
beers, Head, which is our Austrian style pilsner and Blackwing is just coming out, that's our answer to Guinness and yeah we will brew them fully every time so it'll be 1500 litres of Head, 1500 litres of Blackwing, yeah fair enough. All the others they're always going to change so you're always going to be expecting to see something completely fresh on the taps whether it's in our place or hopefully further afield with other clients.

Martin (05:44)
Yeah.

Yeah, so them two are your core range beers that you'll continuously brew all year round. It's quite surprising that you haven't got an IPA or a Pale because that's quite unusual to have a Pilsner and a Stout ⁓ rather than an IPA. So that's interesting. What was your decision on that?

Ross (05:56)
Yeah. Yes, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think,

well again from all of experience the very first beer we launched, which was probably wrong, was Hockley Soul That was just a stout, it wasn't a nitro stout, but it was a fantastic beer and we were told at the time there's no way on earth as a craft brewery you can have a full-time stout.

you know, something I like to drink. I love Dublin. I love going over to see my family in Ireland. And yeah, I'm not going to knock Guinness. I don't. It's not the most flavoursome stout you're ever going to find, but it's really consistent and it's just an easy drinker. And the amount of laughs I've had around that stuff, I have to say. So we kind of still want to keep that vibe going.

Ours has got a little bit more of a hit to it, same strength but yeah it's utterly wonderful I think. So yeah we're sticking with our guns and maybe down the line we might do a Pale but at the moment all the Pales they're just so much fun to constantly interact with and do something new with so that's kind where we're at and the Pilsner, it outstrips every beer we've made two to one to be honest with you because if you're a lager drinker and there's one or two lagers in the bar

you know, it's going to go through, simple as that. Yeah.

Martin (07:25)
Yeah, it's a popular style of beer, it, with punters? So

the story behind the name Swallow, obviously we already touched, is to do with birds. ⁓ Was there any names beforehand that you was coming up with before you decided on Swallow?

Ross (07:35)
Yeah.

I mean,

yeah, there were. mean, there were some horrendous names and some people might think Swallow is horrendous, but, we love it. There were. I'm not going to go into them because, mean, we were maybe going a bit too tongue in cheek, but Swallow has just kind of hit the mark, to be honest with you. It's not pushing the boundaries, but also, you know, I was in a band for a long time when I was younger, much younger.

Martin (07:51)
you

Ross (08:09)
Well, I want to incorporate that sort of energy from the rock side of things that we had. So we've got a tattoo vibe with the swallows, a traditional sailor art tattoo, that's all going on. So yeah, again, just having fun with it. And I think it's working really well at the moment.

Martin (08:26)
Awesome. Yeah. It's a great little logo. I love it. It's unusual. Yeah. Really like it. So you launched at a time where, you know, costs were high, markets tough. What made you think it was still the right time to launch Swallow? Obviously, you said obviously you as part of angels and demons and that kind of went away because of COVID.

Ross (08:29)
Thank you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Martin (08:49)
things

haven't really improved much after COVID in regards to, you know, help for small independent breweries like yourself. So yeah, what was the

Ross (08:56)
I think, yeah, I think it's a kind of, if it's in you, it's in you, right? You know, it's a, we know that we're not going to make loads of money at it, but we know that we're going to make a lot of smiles. And that's kind of a bigger part of my life now. I'm trying to get a bit more of a life balance. And for some reason I've come back to brewing as that's going to provide me some sort of life balance. I don't know. I don't know why. Maybe I've got that wrong, but at the moment it feels right. And yeah, I'm,

I'm working a lot closer to home. I'm involved with a couple of other businesses, so I'm fortunate to have some sort of income coming in as well. Otherwise, we probably wouldn't be having a conversation. But at the moment, yeah, it's one step at a time, obviously. yeah, it just felt right, you know? And we have to space. It is, yeah, you can't just remove that. You know, I picked up a guitar the other day and that felt right, but it's definitely not right, I have to say.

Martin (09:35)
Hehehehehe

It's the passion, isn't it? The passion.

No.

Yeah, I know the feeling. I've done a bit of music producing myself and as well as as much as I love producing music, it's not something I'm going to be able to further myself into making income, know. So it's become a hobby and something I occasionally do on the side when I've got a bit of spare time. But yeah, I know what you mean there. yeah.

Ross (09:55)
Last orders.

Okay.

No.

Yeah, nice. Well, I mean, it's good to have hobbies and this happened to be one of my hobbies

in the first place. just going back to the roots on that one, really, and I'm going to let my son overtake me on the rock and roll famedom because he's now an incredible drummer, just about to hopefully hit music college. And so, yeah, I'll let him show me up on that one, think, happily.

Martin (10:37)
You can even jam together a bit of guitar and a bit of drums. Yeah, so obviously...

Ross (10:39)
Yeah, yeah, hopefully. Yeah, exactly that. Why not? And then we'll

come over and you can produce it for us. How's that?

Martin (10:48)
Well, I might be able to master it. And, ⁓ you know, it sounds, sounds like a plan. ⁓ so obviously you said you started as a home brewer as well. ⁓ mean, how long was your home brewing before?

Ross (10:50)
I'll bring a six pack.

Yeah.

Admittedly I wasn't really even home brewing, I think I was just drinking more of the products that Joe was coming over for about, I don't know, six months to a year. Joe was home brewing for years, he'd won all sorts of home brew competitions and this that and the other. In fact he'd done a beer with Sam at Time and Tide, I don't know you know Time and Tide. Yeah, nice guy, nice guys.

Martin (11:22)
Yeah, I know time and tide Can't it be very, isn't it?

Ross (11:26)
Sam or Joe have done a bit of work with those guys for a while and I think they produced a beer together. Lovely guys, think it was a long time ago, that was probably about, it's got to be 15 years ago I'm guessing for Joe. So Joe was brewing for a long time and he had a lot of experience. I went into a homebrew shop, spoke to the guy in Faversham actually.

Martin (11:41)
It's a long time.

Ross (11:51)
is there anyone you know that knows how to brew beer because I'm absolutely terrible and I kind of want to know what I'm up to and he went yeah this guy and anyway I phoned Joe up and it was probably one of the most difficult conversations I've ever had in my life because he's not a big speaker when you first meet Joe and it was a kind of ⁓ hi ⁓ I've been given your number by the guy in Faversham Homebrew yeah okay ⁓

Martin (11:56)
You

Ross (12:18)
I hear you're a home brewer and you're looking to expand. Okay. It's kind of that sort of conversation. Yeah. But I'll tell you what, what a guy. He's incredible and love, love spending time with him. And to be honest with you, I think that's why he's coming over now to, to do a bit of brewing. Cause we just get to spend a bit of time and have a laugh. it's again, going back to that sort of point, it's a real special thing to be able to do that. Go to work in a eight, 10 hour day, get covered in.

Martin (12:24)
A man of many words.

Ross (12:47)
all sorts of goodness and have a good crack. yeah, we're achieving it at the moment.

Martin (12:51)
and

the smells were amazing, aren't they? That's what I do love about brewing beer, the smell's beautiful. So what's the hardest reality, do you think, of starting a brewery that people kind of don't see?

Ross (12:56)
Yeah, absolutely.

Well profit margins, mean it's just it's incredibly difficult. It's kind of at this level it's you have to you have to wear like 15 hats you really do you can't have salesman, dray, packaging guys, this that you are those people so it's kind of making some brutal decisions this time around. We're doing keg, we will do can, we're not doing at the moment I haven't got that specifically nailed so I'm not ready for that.

We've got system but again that needs improving. But it's that and we're sending it out on one-way traffic. That's it. We're not delivering. We haven't got a dray. So if it's local, and I mean local as well, know, spitting distance, well we'll run it out to you of course we will, but it just doesn't work at this level for me. Now it can do, don't get me wrong, people have managed to get over the line but it is such a difficult task.

And the scale that we're at which is you know tiny in the grand scheme of things It's I can do that I can do I can sort the orders out I can do the some of the artwork we can get involved with a bit more I can do myself The more it feels like me as well. There's a lot more of my heart goes into it So which is a good thing. Well, so much so it's a bad thing. I don't know, but I think it looks okay When we get to a point when we can start

taking somebody on, definitely want to take a brewer on, of course I want to do that, but at the moment again it's just going to take so much away from what I'm trying to achieve with it that it just wouldn't work and the cost of that, you know, it starts going up really quick and now almost it's unaffordable. So then the next stage is trying to upscale, right we've got to get bigger so we can pay for this guy and we can have this

Martin (14:47)
Yeah.

Ross (15:00)
drayman and now we've got to get a van and that's finance and whoa! You know, it starts getting immediately, you know? And then somebody's come out with a new gadget that does this thing in the brewery and now you have to have that. You don't. I'm here to tell you, you don't. You don't. Yeah, I mean, I love a gadget, but you know, but you know what I mean? A gadget in a brewery is thousands of pounds. You know what I mean? It really is.

Martin (15:16)
gadget I love a gadget yeah

Yeah, I mean,

and is it really going to do much difference? You know, is it going to help the profits?

Ross (15:30)
Well this is it, is part of my journey, this is what I'm trying to realise.

I think we can produce top quality beers that will sit easily in the modern market, no problem at all, on the pretty poultry system I've got. Now don't get me wrong, it's decent, it's clean, it's tidy, we've got really good fermenters, but we haven't got all the trinkets, know, hop rockets and this that and the other, we're not doing that. We're just keeping it real simple, clinical.

and what can we produce, what's the best beer that we can produce with these tubs and that's where we're at.

Martin (16:06)
Yeah, definitely. mean, you do what's right for yourself and the brewery. And I think a lot of places could probably expand a bit too quickly.

Ross (16:16)
Yep, 100%.

Martin (16:17)
And so, you know, you're quite new. You've got a new name. Yes, you've worked in other breweries before, but the name's new. So it's going to take a while to get that name out there. And yeah, if anyone is listening right now, please check out Swallow Brew Co. Check out their beers. And yeah, and so obviously the styles of beers that you're brewing as well, your core range, you've got your pills, you've got your stout, which is based on Guinness.

Ross (16:34)
Thank you.

Martin (16:46)
and then you're doing your one-off specials for your pales and your IPAs. What sort of hops are you using for your pales and your IPAs? Are you going more traditional UK hops or?

Ross (16:56)
Well, we've got,

I mean, we we're not to be honest with you. We were stepping away from that market. have to say we may use we may use it for a bittering hop, but we're not using a lot of bitter. We're going slightly on the sweet side. East Coast Pales, New England IPAs. Yeah, we're going to do a Westie. We're not. We haven't touched that yet. But with New Zealand Pales, I've got one called I broke my nose on the garden hose. That's that's going really well.

⁓ Our first beer was called Does Your Tortoise Flake? there's always a story mate, I can tell you. But yeah,

Martin (17:27)
Sounds like a story though.

Ross (17:32)
we've released quite a few with odd names and we're going to continue to do that, going down the fun route. But yeah, the Pales, we've got hops from all over the world. We've got access to all the hops that we want. you know, they're readily available in small batches now. Ten years ago, you had to sign huge contracts and it was...

you know ridiculous but nowadays you don't have to do that. ⁓ It is yeah yeah and I'm enjoying the new stuff that's coming out all the experimental stuff so we're getting little little tastes of that and because we're not doing it as a repeat beer we it doesn't matter if we can't get it again also be it we'll move on to the next one because there's always going to be something else but if we were doing that as a right well this is our pale this is a this this is this we would be in trouble.

Martin (17:56)
Yeah, yeah, it's more accessible, isn't it?

Yeah.

Ross (18:23)
you'd have to then start looking at bigger investments into hop contracts. Again, I don't want the risk to start overwhelming the fun side and it can do and it has done. I've been there. been there. And anyone listening to this will know exactly what I'm talking about in the brewing world. So I'm keeping it as simple as I can. And the more simple we can keep it, we'll step out one tiny lap, one prong at a time, simple as that. We're not going to take

Martin (18:35)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Ross (18:51)
massive strides, we don't want to. It's got to be a slow and gradual continuation.

Martin (18:58)
Yeah, 100 % agree there. If you can expand quicker, great. But if you want to take it slow and easy, then that's the way to go. You always go at a speed that you're comfortable with. So, based in Folkstone in Kent, what's the beer scene like over there? What's access to market like as well?

Ross (19:21)
Well, you know what? It's starting to turn a corner. I think when we started, I think it was pretty dead, be honest with you. But there's some cracking. mean, Folkestone, I love it. I love Folkestone. There's so many fantastic little places now. Beer Shop Folkestone, Lee, great guy. Him and his wife, they're both wonderful. They're really into what they're doing. They create a fantastic atmosphere over there. You've got a new place, Ronnie and Rita's open up. James.

and Holly I believe, James and Holly, they've literally, they'll be fantastic. They've got loads of these little outlets and you know what I mean? It's not hackney or anything like that. But yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly that. And yeah, they're all putting their little stamp on. Of course you've got the Harbour Arm, is, you know, it's mad over there. know, you've Floc. over there who took our place when we had it as Angels and Demons. Again, really good at what they do. Seriously good at what they do. You know?

Martin (19:58)
Like a micro pubs

Yeah, Floc are

one of my favourites.

Ross (20:19)
I would say one of the best breweries in Kent, hands down, and I'm happy to say that because I think they deserve everything they get. Hats off to them for what they've achieved, getting in with the likes of Deya and the list goes on, let's face it, Beak, I believe they've just got one coming out with. Hats off to them, I'd love a bit of that. If I can ever get in with those guys, I'll definitely do something with them. I think that they've taken reins and they've run with it. They've done everything to the letter.

Martin (20:22)
Yeah.

100 % yeah.

Ross (20:47)
They've pushed a few boundaries, they look edgy, they're sharp, the products are immaculate, what can I say? Hats off to them, ⁓ best of luck. So they've got the main bar over the harbour arm. I believe they've just opened the lifeboat up in ⁓ Margate that was one of our old clients. And that looks great, the tap room, I regularly go there. If I'm going to Canterbury I'm going to the tap room, simple as that. Staff are always excellent.

Yeah, big up to those guys, they're fantastic. So yeah, the scene's starting to happen. It's starting to move. And there are breweries popping up that are worthy of calling themselves a modern maestro. And Twisted Wheel like I say, Keith, Twisted Wheel some of the products that coming out of McCann's and Twisted Wheel absolutely superb. So yeah, it's definitely starting to happen.

Martin (21:30)
Yeah.

Awesome. ⁓ And you've got your own tap room as well on the site.

Ross (21:43)
We have, we've got,

it's not on site, so our tap room's in the heart of Folkestone in Tontine Street. It's called the Blind Pig, which is a prohibition reference basically. So it's, yeah, 10 taps, cosy, always got music on Friday, Saturday, Sunday. It's generally rammed in there on the weekends and probably not just for the beer, the atmosphere's wonderful. Tom, who runs the place, he is...

adorable to be perfectly honest with you and it's been round the block. He's been a Chambers manager for a long time when Chambers was open under Chris Smith and so yeah he's doing a job that he actually wants to do. How rare is that to find someone in hospitality that wants to be in hospitality? Yeah you go to Dublin, you go to college for three years to become a bartender and they're worlds apart I'd say but in England generally it's a kind of a stopgap isn't it?

Martin (22:14)
Hahaha

Yeah, is. It's very rare.

Ross (22:40)
Which is fair enough, know, hospitality is tough. But it isn't something that a lot of people would choose to do as their primary choice. They would choose to do something else. But Tom, he nails it every week and he's well into the music, he deejays as well. So yeah, it's a great spot. We're lucky to have it. I'd like it to be a bit bigger, but...

Martin (22:43)
Yeah.

Yeah, their primary job. Yeah.

Ross (23:08)
maybe on the next one we'll find that space as well.

Martin (23:11)
Yeah. How important do you think a tap room is for breweries? Yeah.

Ross (23:14)
Hugely, hugely

important. know, as we're just going out to from the commercial side of things, as we're now starting to go out live, we're on Sellar we're going to start taking clients down there. We're going to give them a spot of lunch and hit them with the beers. And where else can you do that other than in your own tap room? It's an outlet for your products directly. It makes utter sense. To be honest with you, I can't, it must be really hard.

to try and survive without a tap room without your own offering. Everyone is doing it, lets face it there is a reason why, because it works. It is a big part of it.

Martin (23:53)
Yeah, plus

it's hard to get your beers as well into pubs that are owned by pubco's, cetera. it's very few independent pubs around.

Ross (24:00)
Exactly that and there's so many people.

Absolutely. Dockers as well, I have to give them a shout. They're down in Park Farm industrial estate, they're next to Screwfix and they've got a huge unit and since they've started having people and you know they've literally moved I think it's a couple of years ago maybe last year even. was recent anyway and they're doing great stuff. They had an event down there last weekend and it was absolutely chock-a-block. think it was 160 tickets, ticketed events sold out.

So again, fair play. It's a massive thing to have your own taproom.

Martin (24:35)
Would you say that's the biggest advantage that small independent breweries have over the big globals?

Ross (24:38)
Yeah,

100%. Yeah, if there is an advantage that small independents have, you know, it's pretty, they're pretty rare to find. you know, you look at Shepherd Neame, I don't want to knock them on air, but to be perfectly honest, they're the polar opposite of what I enjoy out of a beer. They haven't really changed. They're effectively just a huge landlord company. They own half of Faversham. Why did they start doing that in the first place?

was the only reason it worked in the first place is because you got an outlet to sell your wares and as that grows.

Martin (25:13)
Yeah, exactly. And that was where the

whole beer orders, wasn't it, was brought into play because you had the big five globals in the UK at the time, owning up X amount of pubs across the country. So they brought that into play and made it worse ⁓ in my eyes. Not only have you got your big global foreign companies like Heineken, et cetera, you've now got a middleman with pub companies

Ross (25:31)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Martin (25:43)
that are buying from them places and it's made it worse, a lot worse than it used to be. Yeah, so ⁓ what worries you about the industry right now? There's probably quite a few things we could run off a good 10 at least.

Ross (25:48)
Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely true.

I mean crikey, you said

it was going to take an hour but I think they'll be turning this into an all-nighter. Well, think, you know, the competition is always a big thing, isn't it? know, hospitality, people are saying there's no money about There is money about it. think, to be honest, I'm sick of hearing it. I'm sick of hearing people saying all this, you know, detrimental verbatim online in the media.

Martin (26:05)
We cut it down to just three. Top three.

Mm.

Ross (26:31)
No, get everyone out. If everyone's got confidence to go and spend some money, we've got ⁓ a country full of, I mean littered now with incredible little breweries. That is one of the problems. I say that as I've just started a brewery, there are a lot of breweries. There are a lot of breweries. And unfortunately, that normally means that one closes down and another one opens up. It's the same with the pub trade. Look at all the country pubs that can't make it anymore because...

And quite rightly so, know, drink driving came in, that made a massive impact on the pubs in the villages. Again, quite rightly so, but there is a knock on effect. People lose their jobs. Now people can go and have a pint. And that's basically it. So obviously they started developing, we're now basically a restaurant, you know, so the wet trade was probably more like 75, 80, maybe even 90%.

it's probably 50-50 if not 40-60 now. It's that disparate. Yeah, exactly. So therefore there's less opportunity there. So as much as we want these places to survive, otherwise we're not here either, that's a stark realisation that the more they diversify, the less beer is potentially going to be consumed. Plus the fact that we've now got boutique gins and boutique this, that and the other.

Martin (27:33)
Yeah, I think a lot of places are food led, aren't they? ⁓

Ross (27:58)
There's, it's almost like, know, gin's been a sort of a 10 year thing. I thought rum was going to start coming through actually. I thought that was going to sort of make ⁓ a leap of faith five years ago, but it will come through and then it will die off and it'll be vodka and it might be beer again. So I'm just hoping that our turn is going to be coming back in soon, basically.

Martin (28:10)
Yep.

Yeah,

I remember the big gin boom with all the different flavoured gins when they all started coming out and everyone was just drinking gin, different flavoured gin, orange gin, pink gin, all that stuff. And it was a phase and it has come and it's gone. Not many people are drinking them sort of flavoured gins anymore, not like I see anyway. ⁓

Ross (28:22)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Martin (28:38)
I think kind of with the beer, think it's kind of happening with low and no alcohol beer. I think that's becoming a new trend. How long it lasts for is anyone's guess, but it is growing year on year. Something you've looked into?

Ross (28:43)
Yep, definitely. Yep.

I mean it's also in the

government's favour to promote low and no and say that this is actually what's happening. I mean I don't see that in my bar. So there are bars that want to serve all sorts of beers, of course we want to do an offering that will support that, but I can't see us being a six taps or five taps of low and no and then five taps of go go go.

Martin (29:01)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Ross (29:20)
realistically it's potentially a bit of a fad. and yeah, hats off to anyone that's doing good products out there. are, I mean, Pomona Island, god gee, have you tried their No Alcohol? It is utterly awesome.

Martin (29:34)
I'm not a lover of no

alcohol because I'm waiting until there's a day where I can taste an alcohol free beer and it tastes exactly the same as their flagship core range beer. That body, I need that body. I've spoken to people in the industry, Yeast within Yeast and at WHC Labs, spoke to Paul Malcolm from them and there are...

Ross (29:49)
Yeah, yeah, keep dreaming, mate.

Yeah.

Yep.

Martin (30:04)
things coming out to help with that body and mouth feel in in alcohol free beers but yeah until that day comes ⁓ I don't think I'll be drinking alcohol free beer.

Ross (30:15)
Well, no, I I had one last

night because I'm trying to be good at the moment. We've been away, we've been fortunate to go on holiday recently and yeah, it was a bit of an annihilation. So I'm trying to calm down a bit. That normally doesn't last too well, but there are products out there that are good. But, you know, I eat a lot of vegetarian food, you know, the new products that are coming out that are chicken fillets, but they're not chicken. It's not chicken, is it? It's not going to be chicken. You know, it won't be chicken. And so...

Martin (30:32)
Yeah, I mean the lagers.

It's like, yeah, meat

free sausages. I think the ones that do really well are the ones that you don't have to change much to in regards to body, i.e. lagers, for instance. There's no body in lagers. So when you're making an alcohol free lager, you just got to make sure that the taste hits well. ⁓

Ross (30:52)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Martin (31:00)
i.e. know there's some breweries beers that

the original beer was quite thin bodied and quite not much going on character wise, hop character wise, and they make an alcohol free version of that. And it's pretty much similar to the original again, just because there's nothing much going on in the original. when you, know, the Beak Nolia is probably one of the best ones I've tried, would say, alcohol free wise, really, really hop forward, really good hop character. Still again, just need a bit more body to it when that comes around.

Ross (31:10)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, not tried then.

Martin (31:34)
it comes around who knows but yeah

Ross (31:37)
Yeah. No, so we would,

I'd like to think we might do something, but it's certainly not an energy I want to, you know, it commands so much more of you, I think. It's actually quite difficult process. I mean, there's various, various ways to do it, but I don't think it's going to be for us straight away. I don't think so. Anyway, I'll leave it to the people that are really good at it, to be honest with you. There's good for you out there. There's a good for you out there.

Martin (31:53)
Yeah, yeah.

yeah, definitely.

Yeah, definitely. I'll make you right. Yeah. So how do you think you can turn first time drinkers into loyal fans of the brewery?

Ross (32:12)
Good question.

I it's all about attitude towards it and being this the whole package, know, so if you're into music, you're going to be, you know, sort of the rock scene, for instance, just give you one example. If you're into that sort of tattoo vibe, you're going to we're creating a brand around that. You're probably going to be a bit more loyal. You know, that's that sort of thing. The products speak for themselves at the end of the day, don't they? And that goes for any any any product. I think I think we've got a good

Martin (32:36)
Yeah, 100%.

Ross (32:42)
range and we're going to have a massive range to be perfectly frank because of how we're going to produce the beers. We're constantly changing the beers. Exactly, I mean we've got a red rye at the moment called Fat Spaniel and that's flying out and it's our second most popular beer. I'm staggered by that. I think it's delicious. I love it, don't get me wrong. But you say that but that's the point isn't it?

Martin (32:48)
split batching.

I love red IPA. Red IPAs are coming back. They are certainly coming back. If there's any one, if it's one beer

style that I want to see more of is red IPAs. think they're beautiful.

Ross (33:09)
What exactly?

Well, but you say that so this is a red rye IPA two styles which you know, some people won't like that and so therefore for it to be our second bestseller after Head Pilsner is quite surprised me, you know, so we're going to do another one similar to that and when that one's run out, we'll do probably another one. But it is a trend, you know, like you just said, you know, I was I was right into to rye IPAs. I mean, that was that's kind of what got me into the craft beers, to be honest with you.

you don't see them very often and when you do see them I don't think they're generally that good anymore. it's hard to find a

Martin (33:40)
Yeah.

Yeah, I'm definitely looking out for

different styles of beers. I was big on the hazy IPAs, but now just trying to see more different varieties of styles of beers on the taps rather than just 10 taps, 6 of them IPAs or Pales in a lager. I want to see a bit more offering as well.

Ross (34:07)
Yeah exactly that.

We've got a Hefeweizen called Bloody Good Toast which is, I think it's really good. It's darker than a typical Hefeweizen I have to say but it's just looking at some of the products when I go to Austria a bit and there's a tiny, a two and a half barrel brewery out there, Dorfalm called Stricker beer in a little village called Holzgau and that is the best.

Hefeweizen I've ever tried and it's the best Helles I've ever tried as well. I mean totally amazing So I've kind of gone with what they do and it's darker, you know, so Yeah, so we've got that we've got lots of different styles and we're trying to mix it up So we're gonna do a Westie soon. That's not one I've done for a long time to be honest with you So yeah, we're gonna yeah more pine and more sort of resonant

Martin (34:59)
Love a Westie. You're gonna be traditional with it. High

ABV, bitter.

Ross (35:04)
I so yeah.

least high fives maybe into the sixes. I'm not going to go mad with it to start with. We may even split that and do a baby brother or something, a lighter one. So yeah, we're definitely going to play about with it, that's for sure. What else would you like to see? I'm asking you a question now. What would you like to see?

Martin (35:22)
stands in. ⁓

gosh, no one's asked me a question before. This is my podcast. I don't know. ⁓ it's so many. I do like a Helles. I I love a Helles. ⁓ One of my favorite Lager styles. ⁓ Like I said earlier, red IPAs. Again, one of my favourite styles. I do like a Belgian blonde if it's done nice. Yeah. So yeah.

Ross (35:28)
Hahaha!

Okay.

Yeah, okay. Well, we've definitely

got a Helles on the cards. That's definitely going to happen. So yeah, watch this place.

Martin (35:52)
I'll be comparing

you to the Augustina. No pressure, no pressure though.

Ross (36:03)
I'm sure I'm gonna pull off something palatable.

Martin (36:06)
Helles are good. mean, Augustina is obviously amazing, but there are some amazing beers out there that are obviously made by other breweries. There are other Helles available. So if you could collaborate with any brewery, who's getting the call?

Ross (36:16)
Yeah, of course. Of course.

Honestly, Floc, number one. And Pomona Island. my god, I just love their stuff. And I'd love to do something with the boys over at Twisted Wheel. I think, yeah, just a bit of homage. Yeah, they're kind of my three. There's a couple of locals that there's a chance that we're gonna be doing something. Hopfuzz, Daryl, we'll have a chat with him again about that. But yeah.

Martin (36:30)
Yeah, I love them.

Ross (36:51)
I'm not going go nuts with that to start with but if I could get in with the guys at Floc or Pomona Island or Twisted Will, happy days. Absolutely. I'd happily go and dig out the mash tun for them and all of that because I just think they've hit it on the head. Totally.

Martin (37:08)
you

Yeah,

definitely. Yeah, 100%. So if you weren't brewing beer, what would you be doing?

Ross (37:17)
Yeah.

Goodness me, I do other things, I'm involved in the construction side of things and less interesting stuff like air hygiene, so before you all fall asleep I probably need to move on from that. But no, it pays the bills at the end of the day and it allows me to do this and keep this fun at the moment until such time that I can take it the next step.

Martin (37:36)
You

Ross (37:49)
plan more time and energy into it. But as I say we're fortunate enough to be able to do this sort of slowly at a snails pace and then build it really carefully. Make the mistakes and learn from them really in short succession rather than big investment, big mistake, my god what are going to do now. yeah, probably though to answer your question from a fun side of things, ⁓ that is a good question actually. I've never really considered what I feel like I want to do.

Martin (37:59)
Yeah.

Ross (38:18)
Definitely want to be involved with the Brewing. I would love to do something for my son, music wise. I'd like to see him in a band and me being one of the annoying parents that takes the kids around and gets them in the studios and regales them of all the rock industry that I was never in anyway and all of that. But I'd love to do something with the kids, with  my son. Because, I've got high hopes for his incredible talent and I'm sure he has as well.

Martin (38:32)
promoter.

You

That's awesome. That's a good answer. That's a god one. ⁓ If you could do a Thanos moment, know, click your fingers. What would you change about the UK beer scene?

Ross (38:59)
Wow, I can't stand the fact that we've got all these beers that get launched with massive money and I'm not going to mention them but and then five minutes well like Madri is a prime example isn't it this beer came out of nothing and then you'll be dropped for the next ⁓ with a different slightly you know just sick and tired of it but

Martin (39:09)
You can mention him. It's Yeah, brilliant. Let's mention him. I'm not endorsed by any of them,

Ross (39:25)
If that's what people want, that's what people want, but it's not what the craft industry wants, is it? So, you know, there's plenty of room for us.

Martin (39:30)
Yeah, how do

you think we change it? What do you think is needed to change everyone's perception that drinking these crap beers is the way to go?

Ross (39:44)
Support from the government, support from the people that, you know, we're part of this nation. They should support the small man rather than just the massive conglomerate that doesn't even probably pay half the tax in this country. I think it's government led, isn't it? Everything really goes back to the big G. And if we get support, we're going to have more freedom to do more interesting advertising and

Martin (40:05)
Yeah.

Ross (40:12)
There's always going to be advertising that's interested in fun stuff from any craft movement in any regard. Of course there is, but it does get quelled. It gets quashed very easily by big boys with lots of wallets at the end of the day. Simple as that, isn't it? Let's face it.

Martin (40:28)
Yeah, 100 % yeah. Yeah, 100 % right. So much that we can say, whether it gets done or not is a different matter. You know, I speak to our spoken spoke to ash, the chairman of CAMRA recently got the episode coming out on on the 13th of April. About

what they're doing to try and convince the government that an access to market review is needed and why it's needed. And obviously you've got a society of independent breweries as well that are doing all they can to back the small independents as well. But there's also other trade organisations that are not all for independent breweries and stuff, i.e. the BBPA, they've obviously got their members there and the BII.

Ross (40:57)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Martin (41:20)
know,

it's just it's about coming together and trying to come to a common solution, I suppose to, you know, what's best for everyone.

Ross (41:27)
Yes.

Yeah, it's

good to, I think CAMRA's sort of changed their stance a bit. Maybe they had to, know, the likes of SIBA coming through the ranks and that sort of thing. I think it's good, you know, that they've started, they've upped the ante, I think, for, for craft movement. And again, more for the sticking together, like you said, we don't need to be pushing apart from each other to make this work. There's room for everyone. There really is. And

I don't necessarily want, I didn't want Beaver Town to be taken over by Heineken. You know, before, when I first had a pint of neck oil, it was in Dill in Taproom there, quite a while ago. And it was cloudy, it was lovely. It was a cracking pint. And then Logan sold out effectively to Heineken, which I understand why, you know, we're talking big numbers there, but it doesn't make it.

Martin (42:03)
No, I didn't either.

Ross (42:28)
not it's not the same product as soon as that it's crystal clear now and it gets sold gets sold in its millions with with Heineken of course it does so isn't that proof that that marketing budget is so immeasurably large you know that it changes people's perception

Martin (42:31)
Yeah, of course it's not, no.

Yeah. Do you think that?

Well, of course, yeah, because he had a

big, Beavertown had a massive marketing budget didn't they So, you know, it just goes to show that if a small independent has got that money behind them, they can get the name out there and people will drink it because it was, you know, it was unique. was, you know, clicky, you know, the artwork was fantastic. And it just goes to show that, you know, how powerful marketing can be.

Ross (43:00)
Yeah, absolutely.

Martin (43:08)
and where independent breweries haven't got the money to match that, unfortunately. Yeah, so last question of the day. It's been absolutely amazing having you on and having a great old chat. I've had a good old chin wag and a good laugh. It's been good. So the last question is, if you could go back and give yourself one bit of advice before you started Swallow Brew Co, what would it be?

Ross (43:12)
No, that's right.

Yeah, I've enjoyed it. Thank you very much.

Oh goodness, do you know what? When I first went up to some lectures up in Leek talking to you about this pre the show, one of the guys, one of the lecturers stood up there in a very straight face and he said, whatever you do, don't start brewing. And everyone went, know, chortles around the room and he went, no, whatever you do, don't start brewing. And I don't want to wane to that. I want to...

I want to honestly take the advice of one step at a time make the mistakes and be proud of those mistakes and I've made plenty of them and you know in terms of all sorts of all sorts of things to be honest with you but own those mistakes and then realise what they are and create something better. Learn learn and say own it don't just don't just don't just put products out there because you need to because there's liquid in a tank.

Martin (44:18)
Yeah, learn.

Ross (44:29)
If you're not happy with it, it's got to go down a drain. It's got to. And honestly, I've seen so many beers go out from different breweries that you know that they know that isn't good. You know, but of course they're in such difficult financial turmoil half the time that they kind of have to take that chance, but it really damages the brand. So if it's not good enough, definitely that. If it's not good enough, it's going down a drain. Simple as that.

Martin (44:33)
Yeah, it has to,

Yeah,

I agree.

Ross (44:58)
That's the only way forward.

Martin (45:01)
Yeah, that's a perfect note. You know, I've tried so many beers on taps on breweries and the beer wasn't up to scratch. you know, your first impression, if it's your first impression of a brewery as well, you're drinking that one particular beer that's not quite cut it.

Ross (45:09)
Yeah.

Martin (45:18)
That's the impression you're going away with. And then you kind of, if you see their beers on again, you tend not to go and try them because you think, no, I had one of their beers and it was horrible. Even though they might have improved further down the line, their beers might be absolutely amazing, but that one impression that you had one, two years ago is going to stop you from drinking their beers again. It's, you know, it's how it is. Well.

Ross (45:21)
Mm-hmm.

That's right, yeah. It wasn't great.

Yeah, totally true. Yeah, that's totally true. And you never know who your punters are. You

you've got one guy that's in there, or guy or girl that might be utterly obsessed with beers, and they have one beer, and they go and tell all of their flock of people, don't drink that, it's utter nonsense, it's terrible. So it's knock on effect, isn't it? It's massive.

Martin (45:57)
Yeah.

or word of mouth is a very, powerful tool. certainly is. ⁓ yeah, you got to name it. Collaboration with the Beer Rep Chats With Let's do it.

Ross (46:03)
Yep. I think we'll do a beer called of word of mouth.

That's it, 100 % mate.

Nice one.

Martin (46:13)
Well,

it's been amazing having you on Ross, mate. I've really enjoyed chatting to you and I wish you all the best for Swallow Brew co. ⁓ Please everyone listening, check out their socials and their beers if you ever go out to Folkestone. All the links will be in the description in the bio below. ⁓ Once again, Ross, thanks for coming on the show.

Ross (46:17)
Yeah, it's been a pleasure.

Thanks so much Martin, it's been a pleasure mate.

Martin (46:35)
Yeah, it's been great, mate. And yeah, we'll see everyone back in a couple of weeks. Yeah, until then, see you later.

Ross (46:43)
Cheers mate.