It’s Craft, Not Daft. Todd Fullarton on Building Wilful Beer

Martin (00:00)
Hello and welcome to another episode of the beer rep chats with and proudly sponsored by the keg warehouse. And today I'm joined by Todd Fullarton of Wilful Beer. Todd, thank you for joining the show.

Todd Fullarton (00:13)
No problem. Thanks for having me on.

Martin (00:14)
Yeah, it's great to have you on. You guys launched in 2024 and  making quite a big impact already. What made it the right time in 2024 to go out and start a brewery with all the challenges that happening right now?

Todd Fullarton (00:29)
Well, previously ⁓ I was basically TQ Beer Works, which started in late 2019. ⁓ We had three months before COVID hit. So basically TQ Beer Works is now just a tap house in Torquay. So it was basically a family business. I was the brewer. My dad and my uncle were basically investors and my cousin.

kind of ran the Torquay bar. That was our direct consumer outlook. And so we split it in 2024 amicably. So TQ Beerworks still exists in Torquay and we supply the vast majority of their beer. Because basically we said it so it was me and my dad do the beer side, although it's all me, my dad's retired. And my cousin, my uncle handle the bar side in Torquay.

We just kind of winged with family But at the end of it I was just like this is insane because it's just too much you know and I kind of uh, you know, I was

Martin (01:25)
Yeah.

Todd Fullarton (01:29)
Brewing five, not five days a week, but I was at the brewery five days a week, then doing 12 hour shifts on a Saturday. And I said, look, need to kind of like, I need to brew. That's my job. And like the bar can be like separate. And basically, essentially, I started Wilful Beer, because a friend of mine of 25 years, he was moving, but he worked and lived in Holland, selling like medical equipment, like lab equipment worldwide and stuff. And basically his company got bought out by some American companies and

It's a familiar story, everything started going a bit south, they started cutting stuff and if you know what mean, happens in beer obviously. And I said to him, look, if you ever want to get involved, you know, cause he'd always wanted to get involved, if you ever want to get involved, now's the time. And yeah, my business partner, Andrew Williams, the Williams part is the will of the willful, the ful is the Fullarton one day in the van that came to me,

And I kind of thought, that rubbish or really good? But anyway, and then at that point, we kind of split into Wilful Beer, TQ Beer Works just stays at the top house in Torquay, kind of works name-wise. And we supply them basically with the vast majority of their beer with like a good discount, obviously. Yeah, and that's how Wilful Beer started.

Martin (02:35)
Yeah, of course.

Todd Fullarton (02:38)
we had a really good customer from TQ Beer Works days who took our stout all the time in Saltash. I don't know if you've ever heard of that area. It's just over the bridge into Cornwall. And ⁓ I jokingly said to him I deliver to him once on the Thursday and there was a queue outside waiting to get in for him to open. And I jokingly said to him once, if you ever want to sell this place, let me know. And he said, actually.

Martin (02:45)
Yeah,

Todd Fullarton (02:59)
I am thinking about it. So me and Andy, the first thing we did, we purchased the Cockle Shell So we had a direct to trade outlet and we had Torquay as well, kind of as direct, you know, we sell masses of beer through there, but we knew we needed a direct to trade outlet to even survive. So yeah, we started right off the bat with our own place in Saltshash as well. So yeah, that's how that started in 2024, but it kind of started five years earlier.

Martin (03:15)
Yeah, of course.

Yeah, everyone starts somewhere, don't they? And then they kind of progress it into something bigger, further down the line, you know, when the time is right, or when they feel the time is right. So you came out with quite a strong identity, like straight away. How important was branding from day one?

Todd Fullarton (03:41)
Yeah, we believe in you only make a first impression once. So we, do you know the brand Weaver?

Martin (03:47)
Of course I've had Tim on the show already, great guy. Big shout out to Tim, hello Tim.

Todd Fullarton (03:49)
Okay, cool, yeah.

So we actually kind of, Andy knows knew Tim personally almost, we're like a mutual friend. And yeah, we were like, all right, straight from the get go, we're gonna have decent website, good branding, we're gonna do it properly. And I kind of didn't do that with the previous endeavor. So yeah, it was important to us basically. ⁓

Yeah, and I think it's quite a recognisable brand. like to think so anyway. ⁓

Martin (04:16)
Yeah, the colours are ⁓ consistent throughout your whole website and your branding of your beers and stuff. know, what did did Tim kind of guide you through when when you was doing your website and the branding of the beers and stuff?

Todd Fullarton (04:28)
Like you said, consistency and things like that. It's kind of the same theme runs through. Like I was obsessed with, I want everything to be lupulin green, the same color as a hop palette. So we spent ages on the shade of green, the motto and things. Language and things, but although I'll be honest with you, I'm terrible at social media. I'm kind of, I'm like a hermit. I just want to be in the brewery, but you

Martin (04:39)
Yeah.

I'm still learning it.

Todd Fullarton (04:56)
can't really do that. So yeah, I need to get better.

Martin (04:59)
Yeah,

you've to be more than just a brewer these days. It's same with everything, I suppose. There's so many different... You can't always pay to have these things done for you, so you kind of have to do it yourself and learn. ⁓ But I find it fun learning new things and stuff like that. Yeah, you talked about your slogan, obviously. So your slogan is, it's craft, not daft.

What does that actually mean in practice?

Todd Fullarton (05:27)
For me it basically means I'm your typical brewer who just wants to drink pils and bitter. I don't know if you've ever heard people... For me it's basically we don't brew pastry stouts gimmicky, know, sours with mad adjuncts in. each to their own. Not for me. I class that as daft We buy a of Vault City and they're very good at what they do.

Martin (05:35)
Yeah.

Todd Fullarton (05:52)
And we sell a lot of it, both of our micro pubs, but I'm looking for these beer names. I'm just like, God. Yeah, we basically were quite, yeah, I kind of like brewing classic styles. like I said, we don't have small packs, so pintable, repeatable,  you know, down the middle styles almost. Yeah, and we don't just brew nonstop Hazy IPAs. I like to think I'm kind of...

Martin (05:52)
Coast.

Todd Fullarton (06:16)
Jack of all trades, master of none. I don't know, I brew quite a lot of beer styles because we've got a pub and you'd better be able to brew a few styles, you know, you don't just want eight hazy pale ale on tap.

Yeah, so basically no pastry stouts or funny sours. No, lactose will never get in the brewery, I just can't stand that.

Martin (06:31)
No lactose. Yeah, that's what you should. So

you should, that should have been your slogan, no lactose. So you do lean quite heavily into like West Coast styles  I've seen some of the beers that you've released and stuff, lot of West Coast styles.

Todd Fullarton (06:40)
I know, yeah.

Martin (06:51)
Why go in that direction in today's UK market? mean, obviously it's been quite hazy, IPAs, New England IPAs led for quite some time now, though I feel that it's shifting to more, you know, traditional styles. So yeah, so why go in that direction?

Todd Fullarton (07:08)
It's just super saturated. we don't need the UK craft beer scene, in my opinion, doesn't need any more haze. There's a lot of guys doing it well. And basically I got into beer in like 2012. I lived in London. I used to play poker professionally. I lived in a house of six and we used to do it professionally. And basically I never forget like drinking my first Sierra Nevada Pale Ale My friend of mine bought it and said, this is disgusting. And I tried it. It just blew my mind.

Martin (07:16)
Yeah.

Todd Fullarton (07:31)
Because until that point for me beer was either Macro Lager or Real Ale. I didn't know there was kind of anything else. But I remember like back in those really exciting days going to like Craft Beer Co. in Clapham and there'd just be like 15 different beers on and they were different. Whereas now I think you could go into a place it's like oh there's eight hazes on. And those beers I fell in love with were like, you know, a lot of them were West Coast. There was a lot of early kernel stuff which...

Martin (07:36)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Todd Fullarton (07:57)
It's not really West Coast, but it's kind of its own thing. it's kind of London haze. I don't know what people refer to it as, but it was bitter, you know, and you could drink a few of them. And yeah, we just don't need any more haze, do we? And like, I'm really, I like bitter beer bitter, clear, like dry, crisp, again, like pub, I think it's more suited to pubs.

Martin (08:17)
crisp.

Todd Fullarton (08:21)
it's just more... yeah, repeatable and... yeah.

Martin (08:24)
Yeah,

I mean, it has come a long way that, know, haze, hazy beers and stuff. I remember when I was first working behind bars and, you know, the old lot who drink, you know, traditional cask beers would be

If it's hazy, it's off. somthings wrong with that. I don't want that. And today's market, it's a kind of, you know, have you got any hazy beers? That's the kind of question that you get behind behind the bar these days. Um, so yeah, you know, you talk about hop saturation obsession. I saw on the website, you know, how do you, how do you balance intensity with, you know, drinkability? How do you get that fine balance?

Todd Fullarton (09:02)
⁓ so when I think of a hop saturation, it's kind of like, ⁓ I'm big into like advanced hop products. So I think, I think if you make a beer with T 90 pellets, it'll be good. But if you can make a beer with T 90 pellets, Dynaboost, Hyperboost, Cryo, even like abstract terpenes played with a bit, you're just going to get more complexity, I think. Although there is.

I've made some bad beers dialing these things in the last year. I hit the limits of Hyperboost where I remember I did a Centennial single hop and people say it's piney. This was getting earth It was a bit too much. One thing I remember, that beer was like last keg was 16 weeks old. I was like, this is great, but I don't have to wait 16 weeks to sell a beer.

Martin (09:35)
Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. ⁓

Todd Fullarton (09:47)
But yeah, hop saturation

for me is like, it's not just cramming as many hop products in aimlessly, you know, but like, ⁓ even when it comes to like brewing them, like a lot of people now it's all a big whirlpool addition right at end of the boil. Just layering hops throughout the boil. think people have almost like, cause of haze, forgotten how to boil hops. Does that make sense? Like a beer with like 40, 20.

Martin (10:00)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Todd Fullarton (10:11)
Whirlpool flameout will be better in my opinion than just a huge flameout edition

Martin (10:15)
Yeah, so it's like normally like a small addition at the start for bittering and then literally just everything else in the Whirlpool. And yeah, you're not really developing them hop flavours if you adding them in through the sections. I do a bit of home brewing and I've, I start using a T bagging method, if that makes sense, where instead of a Whirlpool where you just kind of put in a load of hops in a T bag, giant T bag, put them in a, in the fermenter with some hot wort

for about an hour and then take them out before you transfer the beer into the fermenter and that seems to get me better results and more balanced results as well than if I was just to throw in a load up in the whirlpool.

Todd Fullarton (10:58)
Yeah, it's like,

yeah, I summarise some hops, you get a different character out of them. also as well with beers like Pills and West Coast, if you just hit them with Whirlpool additions the beers are like too rounded, does that make any sense? You want a bit of like spike to them, like a punt, you don't get like, so yeah, with Pills, like I think I was brewing them a few years ago and I was doing...

far too late the hop additions like the Germans don't do that it's 45 minute additions um yeah boil hops i just think you'll get a better beer obviously still do the cool whirlpool but um layer it as well yeah

Martin (11:31)
Yeah, definitely.

Yeah, exactly. It's never ending, isn't it, of what kind of flavours you can get from hops? Just by different whirlpool additions, different amounts of hops that you're adding in, it's just never ending, it's endless. But you said you use products like Cryo and Dynaboost How much have modern hop products changed the way you brew your beer?

Todd Fullarton (11:54)
Um, well, I mean, one thing is we've got a, you ever heard of a Dave Porter brew kit? That kind of in-

Martin (12:01)
Yes,

I've got one in the brewery where I work.

Todd Fullarton (12:05)
Yeah, right. so it's yeah, people, people slag them off a bit. But like, know, you can produce good beer on them. They're just I just think if they make it a bit more difficult than it needs to be, it's very physical. my body, like I weigh less now. I'm 40 this year than I did when I was 30. And it's just from that kit.  be digging out with a spade. But anyway, our kettle can only take three kilos of hops. So I have to use advanced hop products,  like cryo.

Martin (12:15)
yeah.

Yeah.

Todd Fullarton (12:31)
Some of these beers are heavy cryo because otherwise you're not going to get the beer out of the kettle. Dynaboost. Yeah, like Dynaboost, I use the people refer to it as the North Park method. I don't know if you've ever heard of that. we actually, get a bucket. So I'll get like a bucket of wort. It's a little bit, it's not the most safe thing. And I'll make a T with the Dynaboost.

Martin (12:35)
It's like hop oils as well.

Todd Fullarton (12:53)
I'll then put that in the fermenter and rack onto it. So you're almost trapping the dyna boost in the fermenter. Most people use it in the whirlpool, but a lot of it almost clings to the wall of the kettle, if makes sense. ⁓

Martin (13:03)
Yeah,

yeah, think you kind of have to dilute it first, don't you? Dissolve it kind of in some hot wort so that it doesn't A lot of people forget about that.

Todd Fullarton (13:10)
So if you lob it in the fermenters

it's got nowhere to go. It's trapped. ⁓ also if you don't put in the kettle, I don't have to clean the kettle out with a scouring pad which is exhausting. ⁓ and the hyperboost, ⁓ I really like these products in West coast actually, rather than or clear beer rather than, ⁓ hazy's because with the haze, I think we want the vegetable matter. You want the T90 to build body and haze really.

Martin (13:15)
Yeah.

you

Todd Fullarton (13:35)
Like I've played with using advanced hot products in haze and I had beers dropping bright and things, which is no good. Like fructus are 4 % hazy. I got lost for a year in advanced hop products with that. I was just, I just got obsessed with like trying to yield an extra keg out of a batch. And eventually I came back to using T90s. This is just before beer x actually. I kind of redialed my beer back in.

Martin (13:54)
Yeah.

cool.

Todd Fullarton (14:00)
by not using advanced hop products and won gold at the Nationals and it just won gold again two weeks ago. But that beer kind of got lost for a year. I was just doing stupid things with it. yeah, so I really like these advanced hop products. In West Coast, you want the kind of crisp, you know, if you use too much T90, again, it becomes rounded and you don't want that. I like the advanced hop products and clear beer actually way more than hazy.

Martin (14:11)
Experimenting.

Yeah.

Yeah, you got to have a nice bitterness to a West Coast and have it crisp. It's got to be. Otherwise it's just, is is it even a West Coast? Is it even a West Coast IPA if it hasn't got that bitterness coming through over any sort of hop character? Yeah.

Todd Fullarton (14:27)
Yeah. Help the clarity as well.

This is something I've I've

I've got massive opinions on this, like I don't like bright IPA. I think it's kind of West Coast for chickens. It's just get some bitterness in there. We don't... I understand why they... why it exists because I think they want people who are used to hazies not getting terrified. A lot of Hayes Brewers used to make up rubbish as well about West Coast. Oh, unpalatable bitterness. All those awful old beers. That was so bitter. A load of rubbish. There was like a couple.

but I agree. I want calcium sulphate for dryness, the beer to finish dry in a west coast and to be bitter. A lot of aren't bitter enough. Mine weren't, previously they weren't, but ⁓ I found by ignoring the IBU numbers on brewing software, I'm just going for it.

Martin (15:16)
You have to

because especially if you're doing late additions you don't really get that true IBU bittering unit do you because it's yeah you have to kind of dial it in early see what bittering units you're gonna get, IBUs you're gonna get from the bittering and then ignore anything else after that kind of thing.

Todd Fullarton (15:23)
No, not at all.

think it's almost

difficult to make a beer that's too bitter, I think. And if you look at old Pliny the Elder clone recipes on homebrew forums, they were like 260 IBUs and people were like, but the beer was still good when you made it. ⁓

Martin (15:51)
Yeah, because they probably achieved their balance as well, know, they probably balanced the beer out so that the bitterness wasn't too overpowering.

Todd Fullarton (15:58)
8 % ABV helps and stuff like that.

Martin (16:02)
Oh yeah, that would help. Yeah. So we're going to go to, know, how you design your beer actually. What comes first? Do you choose what hops you're going to use? What style? Or do you just think, you know, what are our drinkers more likely to buy?

Todd Fullarton (16:18)
Um, style, I would say, um, to be honest with you, I'm kind of like selfish. I basically brew what I want to drink. so yeah, like, yeah, I'm very much into like say, like modern West coast, you know, like beers that they look like Pilsners. And, uh, I don't know if you ever noticed this, but if you look at like, we did a beer for a beer x called Kush, it's like a like,  mad insane hopped modern West coast.

They actually turn like green color. I don't know if you ever noticed this. If you look at them really closely, they look like they've got like a nuclear hue to them. But yeah, for me the most important, yeah, look out for it. You'll notice it. And ⁓ no, but style first, I would say. In terms of the drinker, I don't know, they all want hazies No. ⁓ I hope.

Martin (16:46)
Alright.

⁓ never noticed that.

I'm not

listening to you.

Todd Fullarton (17:08)
Like I will say lately I have with the hazies I know people want they want Citra Mosaic Simcoe Nelson I have started to give people what they want a bit lately. I've just you know, I tried to brew like bitter hazies for a bit But then you just get people confused like this is a bad hazy. So I've kind of

Martin (17:24)
Yeah, I think people assume hazy is with, you know, big tropical flavours, aromas, ⁓ very small bitterness. I think even like IPAs, like, people just put IPA in front of the beer rather than, you know, a New England IPA, which is really what they want it to be or going on them lines. But they call it an IPA and it's just like, well, this isn't really a traditional IPA style. It's, you know, it's very tropical and hazy and hardly any bitterness to it.

Todd Fullarton (17:50)
Yeah, I see.

Martin (17:50)
So yeah,

it's a lot of confusion.

Todd Fullarton (17:52)
On a, you know, UK craft beer forum on Facebook, and basically 90 % of the posts are hazy IPAs. And sometimes I see someone review a West Coast and they'll say it's thin bodied and it does my head in. It's like, no, it's just not hazy. They think everyone has to be thick and hazy. I kind of get it though, if you've come to, if you start drinking IPA, or gone to craft beer in the last five years in this country, if you see IPA like I just said, they will presume you mean a hazy.

Martin (18:05)
Yeah. Yeah.

Todd Fullarton (18:18)
You know, it's, it does my head in with on. ⁓

Martin (18:19)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. But that's how it's got nowadays,

isn't it? But I do think it's changing. I do think it's shifting. think a lot of people are starting to drink like stouts now. A lot of people are trying different styles of beer. Even like lambics are coming, coming really well. Saisons, especially in the spring, summertime, Saisons are a beautiful beer to drink. Very refreshing.

Todd Fullarton (18:28)
Okay.

I agree, I'd love to brew a Saison but no one will drink it. I remember drinking loads of their Brew by Numbers back in the day and they've just gone away now it seems, but yeah sorry go on.

Martin (18:52)
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So anyway, we're to come on to one of the listener questions, which is one of our features. And this one wasn't a recording. This was a question submitted via our Instagram. And it's by Lee Paul Wilson. And he is asking, can you, it's just you Todd, have a go at making a white sabro stout with stronger hints of mint for the summer? And will you create a willful sour?

Todd Fullarton (19:18)
No.

Martin (19:20)
It's a

simple answer. Sorry, Sorry, Lee. Yeah, but it's a no from Todd.

Todd Fullarton (19:26)
Yeah, so

every year I brew a 4 % dry stout, which I dry hop lightly. And last year I did a sabro one and it was actually really nice. ⁓ If you have like a delicate hand with sabro, I think it can be pretty good. And will I brew a white stout? No, it's too gimmicky. It's just, I don't really know how. I'm sure I could learn. ⁓

Martin (19:48)
yeah but

would it be worth it

Todd Fullarton (19:51)
No, I don't think it would sell. Sour, no, I'm just not a sour guy. Although I did have a Kriek from Cantillon a couple of weeks ago and I absolutely loved it, which I didn't think I would. A proper sour.

Martin (20:08)
Yeah, yeah, I'm not too much in love with sours, but there are few sours that are not too tart, not too sweet, just in the middle and they're really nice, especially if they've got like flavours in there that are very balanced and you can actually taste what it says, but not too sweet. I don't like them too sweet, then it just becomes, what is it, a slushy with a bit of sourness to it.

Todd Fullarton (20:32)
I've

seen some worrying beers lately, which literally look like yeast darters coming out of pan. I know, actually, it's come over from America.

Martin (20:38)
Yeah, they're really thick, really thick, aren't they? And it's just like how,

and they're a nightmare to pour as well on the taps. Like they literally just clog up and it just, it's...

Todd Fullarton (20:46)
⁓ I wouldn't.

I wouldn't go near it. I've seen them out of can Keep them to cans. Let the brewery deal with that because they will block lines. They just will at some point. Yeah.

Martin (20:51)
Yeah.

They do. They do.

They do. can 100 % tell you they do. Especially if you, I mean, if you don't shake it, I think you've got to shake them or something before you start pouring them through. But obviously they do settle eventually. And then you just end up either getting it clogged up or it comes out really light and thin. And then you get the really thickness at the end of the keg. Yeah.

Todd Fullarton (21:01)
Thank

slide to the bottom. Yeah that's no good at

all. yeah it's... yeah.

Martin (21:22)
Yeah, it's nightmare. ⁓ Anyway, what, what Wilful beer best represents what you do right now? You know, after you've got about a year, two years, nearly two years, it? ⁓ You've been going? Yeah. So what, what, what beers best represents you as a brewery?

Todd Fullarton (21:39)
Probably, I mean, the modern West Coast stuff. we've got a beer at the moment called Tacoma. It's, I think it's Simcoe Strata. It's modern West Coast basically, crystal clear. Looks like a pilsner, but again, it's a bit green. Every year we do our birthday beer in September is Tetra. That's like a modern West Coast Tetra. I think it means four in Latin. So it's like, it's the Holy Trinity of Citra mosaic, Simcoe and Nelson. It's kind of just all the...

Martin (22:04)
forth.

Todd Fullarton (22:05)
the big players. That's just an all out massive amount of hop. Yeah, just modern West Coast, I would say. But at the same time, like the beer that we sell by far the most offers 4 % hazy fructus. And that's what's won like three golds. It got the regional last year, then it won the gold in Liverpool and it's just won the regional again. Which I think is quite an achievement actually, because that's a competitive category. So a lot of people probably think of us for fructus.

Martin (22:28)
Yeah.

Todd Fullarton (22:31)
And have a core range stout, it's just a straight up oatmeal stout called Abyssus, which we always brew, keep in stock. And I don't actually change that beer, I can tinker about too much, that beer just stays roughly. So, yeah, I've kind of given you four beers there. But really, modern West Coast.

Martin (22:48)
Yeah.

Awesome. Yeah, I'm guessing your West Coast is the one that you're most proud of.

Todd Fullarton (22:52)
Yeah, that's what I'm most like keen

on as well, like I'm kind of obsessed with,

Martin (22:57)
Yeah, so at the moment you're just direct to trade. There's no small pack at the moment. How important has that been for growth, just doing your keg and cask?

Todd Fullarton (23:11)
⁓ yeah, to be honest...

Yeah, we're close to getting a canning line now because one of the, we get by and do all right, just doing direct, you know, we've got two micro pubs and the place in Torquay kind of, you know, a customer takes loads of stuff. after winning the three golds of the nationals, we couldn't capitalise on it without small pack. If that makes sense. People say, we're going to get your beer. I'm just like, no where

Martin (23:30)
Yeah.

Yeah,

have to travel to Devon.

Todd Fullarton (23:36)
Yeah, basically,

we are very close enough to getting a canning line. ⁓

Martin (23:41)
Yeah, I'm looking forward to that actually. I'm looking forward to actually getting some of your beers and trying them at home. Be good.

Todd Fullarton (23:48)
Yeah,

it's like we've took about 10 golds and we finally had one person, a customer come to us and go, can I have some beer? I was like, yes. You know what I mean? It's tough down here because you have your Tide pubs like everywhere. obviously I know I was never going to sell anything to them really. It's cask heavy. We only do a bit of cask really. I want to sell most of that.

Martin (24:09)
Yeah.

Todd Fullarton (24:14)
in our own places because there's just no margin in it as much as I like Cask Ale It's exhausting,  all that work for such little money and we don't have the manpower to be driving around everywhere. then the crafty places down here, there are a few, but we've always found a problem. It's almost like they think they're too trendy for local beer, does that make sense? So you do, two or three kegs a year from these places.

because they almost want...

Martin (24:41)
They

probably want to change their selection most of the time as well, instead of just sticking to one or two. mean, yeah, it is what it is. And it's very hard to kind of get a regular repeat customer for your beers for these these, know, the craft beer niche taprooms and bars. Because obviously they want to keep it fresh and keep different beers coming in. But yeah, and then obviously.

Todd Fullarton (24:44)
Yeah, yeah, super.

for that. Keep in.

Martin (25:04)
Yeah. And then obviously you said you struggle with access to the other pubs that are tied because they can't order from you. ⁓ So yeah, I mean, it's amazing how an independent brewery with tied pubs all around them manages to keep going. And especially when they're only, you know, selling their beers in the localish area. how did you manage to keep it going?

Todd Fullarton (25:29)
We have basically a handful of like very loyal customers, which we've had for years. ⁓ and like I say, we've got two of our own micro pubs. So you need your direct, ⁓ consumer outlet here. Otherwise you got, you got notes. And, ⁓ I'd say one mistake I made is like where the brewery is little place called South Brent. We've had a few like open days here and they're actually quite well attended, but with hindsight, I probably would have positioned the brewery somewhere where it could double as a tap room.

Because it's a bit too out of the sticks, like transport's not great. So if I could go back in time, I'd probably setup the brewing in Plymouth, actually. For a big city, there's not that much going on there, whereas Exeter is quite saturated. It's half the population of Plymouth. So yeah, how did I keep going? Basically, having your own direct-to-consumer outlet and a handful of very good loyal customers as well. Yeah.

Martin (25:57)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Awesome. Yeah. So, ⁓ what's been harder brewing great beer or getting into the right venues? Yeah. It's a no brainer. Isn't it really?

Todd Fullarton (26:24)
getting to the right venues. think now

it's so hard, there's almost been a bit of a reckoning, like if your beer's not really good, you're done. think one of things that blew my mind when I first started in 2019 is I actually visited a few people, like small one-man bands, just to pick their ear a bit.

a couple of them, blew my mind like, they're not actually that into beer. They just kind of wanted to start a business and we're like, I'll start a brewery. And I think if you're like that now and you're not super keen and staying up to speed with things, I don't think you've got any chance. Yeah, it was probably, there was a bit of a boom, wasn't there, the mid 2010s? And...

Martin (27:10)
Yeah, everyone was starting up a Brewery. Yeah.

Todd Fullarton (27:13)
Yeah, and it kind of blew my mind. was like, everyone's not obsessed with beer. just found it odd. Yeah.

Martin (27:18)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I don't think I could start a business or anything that I didn't really have a passion for, you know, because, you know, what's going to drive what's going to drive you once you've set that business up, what's going to drive you to keep going and keep improving and keep, you know, going out, doing your beers day after day after day after day. ⁓ Yeah.

Todd Fullarton (27:38)
have to love it. On a Dave Porter kit yeah.

Martin (27:40)
You have to, yeah. Especially cleaning. You have to love cleaning. That's the number one rule. You've got to love cleaning up.

Todd Fullarton (27:45)
Yeah, it's like,

I played poker for seven years before I brewed and a problem I had with that was I fell out of love with it about three years into the seven and when it became a chore and you lose the passion for it, you stop studying, you're basically at that point, you're a time bomb. So whereas, one of my light worries with brewing is, ⁓ am I going to stay in love with this? And luckily I have.

Martin (28:04)
Yeah.

Todd Fullarton (28:11)
But the only problem with this is there's no money in brewing

Martin (28:14)
No, people are not doing it to be a millionaire, that's for sure, they're doing it because they just love to do it. But, you know, what you've done has paid off. You've already picked up a load of awards for your beers at BeerX and MaltingsFest most recently. How important are those recognitions, you know, as a young brewery yourself? ⁓ And have they had a real impact as well?

Todd Fullarton (28:39)
Well, it's nice to know like, about what you're brewing is good. And like the standard of judging is actually, you can say I'm biased, but it has got a lot better at Maltings than the last few years. I remember the first year I went, kind of thought, what am I doing here? But I see the same faces there every year. it's, yeah, it's nice to know, it's kind of gratifying knowing, oh, you're, people like your beer. Because,

Yeah, but in terms of like sales, I haven't really done anything, but like I'm a terrible self-promoter, we don't have cans. I always think the cans could be, yeah, it's going to be happening soon. They could almost be used to prospect. So I feel like if we had cans, places would buy 12 cans. I'm going to also do a thing as well. I'm going to sell 12 packs with four different beers in. So...

Martin (29:10)
Not yet.

Yeah, you got to do mix packs.

Yeah.

Todd Fullarton (29:25)
Yeah, nothing does my head in more than breweries who sell 24 packs of beers even with two places, it's hard. What happens is you shift the first 12 fast and then the next 12 just sit there. So because of how much that annoys me, I'm going to say, I'm going to sell these split 12 packs so people can try every beer. And then I like to think, you know what, I'll buy a keg now.

Martin (29:29)
it's annoying.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

I really don't see the reason in why people stick to just selling 24 cans. ⁓  trade. This is obviously trade not to customers because

you're limiting yourself to how much beer you can sell or how much beer that's getting out there to wherever you're selling it to. So rather than having, you one, you're selling one case of 24 and that's just one beer that people are going to be trying. You could do a split pack of 12 and then people are trying two beers or if they're going to buy or four, you know, four cases with four different beers or 12, 12 pack. It's much, much more, much more better I don't understand the reasoning why people stick to 24 cases, 24 pack.

It did my head in when I ran the beer rep store, is unfortunately it's no longer online anymore because it was just too hard to sell beer online only without a physical location. But yeah, it really annoyed me that, 24 cans and that was the least you could buy. And it was just like, well, I'm not going to order from you then because I want more value for what I'm ordering. If I can only order 24, then I don't want it because it's hard to push

Todd Fullarton (30:45)
Yeah, I think it's...

Martin (30:52)
all them 24 cans just from just one brewery whereas people had if you got four four different beers they're more likely to buy all four of them because they want to try four different beers from the same brewery rather than just one.

Todd Fullarton (31:04)
Yeah, shout out to a Burnt Mill. They let you build up a pack of like two of this, two of that. So I'll buy like two Imperial Stouts because I know it's brilliant. I'm keep ordering from them, you know, because I think it's a little bit, yeah, the 24 pack thing. It's almost forgetting where you came from a bit as well. your customers are all small generally. Do you know what mean? And they don't want to buy 24. It's too much.

Martin (31:08)
Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. And obviously, they're, like you said, they're more likely to buy a keg as well. ⁓ As well as the cases if they can get it at 12.

⁓ So yeah, so obviously on the back of you winning so many golds, it's an amazing achievement to have so many awards in a short space of time as well really. Maltings Fest wasn't that long after Beer X So we've got another listener question ⁓ from someone I believe you met at Maltings Festival, Claire. ⁓ And she says, hi Todd, Claire here, spelled with a K.

We met at Maltings Fest just a week ago or so, and we were actually serving tables right next to each other to the judges, which was great fun. Anyway, I would like to ask how on earth did you guys go out and celebrate after cleaning up in the awards? For Brewery, that's pretty new on the scene. You were like the bad bunny of the Grammys. So yeah, what did you do to celebrate?

Todd Fullarton (32:27)
I had a few drinks, talked to a few people at the festival, didn't go mad or anything. I I'm not a drinker anymore because I'm getting on a bit. I'll be honest, last year I overindulged and the next day I had the school run and it was just horrific. this year I just kind of stuck to... Yeah, Maltings Fest is a really good tap house over the road as well and he put on...

Martin (32:38)
You

Todd Fullarton (32:54)
I want to say it was like it was Bank Top or some, Northernbury. He had like a barrel-aged stout in Cask he'd been holding on to it six months and I was like, I've got to try it. I kind of, just, yeah, anyway, I just overindulged trying strong stuff. So this year, I just honestly, I had a few halves of just nice cask ale in good condition.

Martin (33:11)
What's happened here?

Todd Fullarton (33:15)
yeah, I didn't go mad or anything. I just kind of had a few nice cask ales for the most part. Talked rubbish with brewers. It's not often you get together with that many brewers. So just talked about boring things like yeast and water. Had a KFC on the train home. Yeah, the year before, the year before I overindulged and the next day I was on the school run, it was horrific. So I was like,

Martin (33:27)
you

standard.

Todd Fullarton (33:36)
I'm not doing that again. Yeah.

Martin (33:38)
Yeah, I

remember doing that at Beer X last year and overindulged and had one day at Beer X and I got on it a bit too much the day before and throughout the whole of the Beer X I was just suffering and then had to go home the next day. So this year I was sensible this year.

Todd Fullarton (33:43)
So did I.

Yeah, this year I discovered the ship and Mitre for the first time. I was just like, ooh, and kind of, yeah, again, I just had to kind of try everything.

Martin (34:01)
it's beautiful. Same. Yeah, it's lovely, wasn't it?

Yeah, I really enjoyed the form bridge and track collaboration, the Polter, the brown ale sorry they did beautiful. That was lovely. It was good. Yeah. So yeah, didn't go crazy. Just a nice easy, easy one. No massive over celebration. So what's, what's your honest take on the UK beer scene right now? You know, are there

Todd Fullarton (34:16)
I went to the bathroom.

Yeah.

boring man these days,

Martin (34:34)
any new opportunities that you think people are missing out on.

Todd Fullarton (34:37)
I think it's, as I've already kind of alluded to, a little bit stagnant. Like I say, back when 2012 to like say 2018, I just felt like there was more people brewing more different styles. I'm not saying everyone just brews haze all the time, they don't, but it's a little too, yeah, I'm not saying get rid of haze, but it's too ubiquitous almost. There's a bit too much of it.

Yeah, I think modern West Coast, could be more of it. There's a lot of it on the West Coast of America. But I think a lot of West Coast you see here, I think some people think it has to look like Sierra Nevada torpedo. You know, it has to have a bit of color and crystal malt It's not true. And I would even argue, yeah, I think there's confusion about it. Whereas,

Martin (35:14)
Yeah.

lot of people compare don't they?

Todd Fullarton (35:20)
I actually think Sierra Nevada torpedo, this sounds a bit mad, but it's not a West Coast IPA. I think it's an American IPA, if that makes sense. True West Coast, I think is like Russian River blind pig, like pale. yeah, because torpedo actually finishes quite high gravity as But yeah, think opportunity, modern West Coast.

Martin (35:29)
Yeah, different style, yeah, slightly different.

Todd Fullarton (35:43)
So not these kind of American IPAs, know, with crystal malt I'd like to see more of them. You get bright IPA. they're kind, some people are like three quarters of the way there, but just forget the bright bit. Get some bitterness in. Bright out. Yeah. I don't like this bright IPA thing. It's kind of modern West coast gone a bit wrong.

Martin (35:57)
Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, it's a strange style. don't see. Yeah, it's little bit kind of friendly, suppose, less bitter than the West Coast.

Todd Fullarton (36:14)
It's kind of wishy-washy, not

quite something. I do like cold IPA a lot though, which is a bit controversial. I like that. I like the idea, but it's the antithesis of haze you know. It's basically a big Budweiser using rice and corn with a load of hops. That's all, I'm all about that.

Martin (36:18)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah,

improving it, improving the Budweiser. So where do you see Wilful Beer in three to five years? Where would you like to be?

Todd Fullarton (36:33)
Yeah.

we used to say we'd like three to five micro pubs or direct to consumer outlets, but with hindsight, think that would just kill me. I wouldn't be able to keep up. ⁓ adding the canning line is like a big thing. ⁓ I quite kinda like where we are. ⁓

Martin (36:52)
Hmm.

Todd Fullarton (37:01)
two direct consumer outlets with one almost like in Torquay they take so much it's almost like having that even though we don't get the direct consumer outlet prices or put on margins um yeah just add a canning line and try and get the beer out a bit more nationwide um yeah we're too almost like yeah it's but in terms of brewery size and fermentation capacity i don't really want to go anymore because i

Martin (37:20)
Yeah.

Todd Fullarton (37:31)
think would just kill me. I'm already maxed out. And I'd like to

Martin (37:33)
Yeah. Yeah. You'll have to hire another

brewer to help you.

Todd Fullarton (37:39)
I'm too much of a control freak for that. But I think one thing I would say, I'd like to try and get a commercial property. almost like we'll be building towards having an asset in 20 years. And I'd like that property to double as a taproom because right now that's a weakness. The brewery is just a production facility. doesn't double as an outlet backwards in the air. But we're making the program.

Martin (37:41)
you

Yeah, yeah. And that way you can obviously

create some sort of community as well for the local area, wherever you decide to set up. Yeah, a lot of people do. A lot of breweries depend on that, don't they? A tap room on the brewery site.

Todd Fullarton (38:05)
Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, it's-

Yeah, one of the mad things in the moment is that I'm never at the, I'm at the brewery all the time, pretty much. And I'm never, I don't really interact with the customers as much as I'd like. And strangely, I don't drink that much of my own beer because I'm never, we haven't got small pack. So I'm never at the pubs. Yeah. I would like to actually interact with customers.

Martin (38:29)
straight from the fermenter. ⁓ That'd

Todd Fullarton (38:35)
Yeah, like Barney Gumbel style, yeah.

Martin (38:35)
be great. Yeah.

Todd Fullarton (38:39)
In the winter I do put two kegs outside when it's cold enough and I have like a picnic tap from the malt miller, but that's just a bit mad because one day the beer is one degree, the next day it's nine. It's a bit ridiculous.

Martin (38:45)
Yeah, why not?

Yeah, see,

should do what I do and just set up a fridge in your front room and turn it into a fermentation chamber so you can just turn it down to two degrees for yeah definitely.

Todd Fullarton (39:00)
Yeah, old school home brew types. I have thought about them. But maybe the easier

solution is just get some cans.

Martin (39:09)
Yeah, I think that'd be easier. Yeah. So we're going to end off on the podcast with a few quick fire questions. So I wanted to ask, answer them as quickly and honestly as possible. If you, if you so please. ⁓ so favourite beer to drink, that's not your own.

Todd Fullarton (39:28)
⁓

Yeah, so basis. I can't name one. Sorry. I like or Tannenszapfle as my lager. I love Jaipur. Just in the 330 cans market. I'm the guy in the supermarket holding them up and look at the dates on them. They put a canned on date. But yeah, sometimes when I'm at home, if I'm having a few beers watching sport, I don't want anything too trendy because I go off on the, I end up on Google like looking.

Martin (39:38)
Yep. Yes.

Todd Fullarton (39:53)
Do know what mean? Like, I can't just drink the beer and go, Jaipur and Rothaus Tannenszapfle I know. They're just like, yeah, great, crushable beers. Yeah.

Martin (39:55)
Yeah.

Yeah, I love a Jaipur. I'll be there next, I'll be there next month. ⁓ Well, this month actually, the time this gets released. ⁓ Visiting the brewery. yeah, can't wait for that. Really looking forward to that. ⁓ So dream collaboration. What's your dream collaboration?

Todd Fullarton (40:19)
Probably Russian River. That would just be like, I probably have a breakdown over met Vinny Cilurzo so like two years ago, Beer X did you go two years ago?

Martin (40:31)
⁓ No, last year and this year. Yeah, so I missed out a couple years ago.

Todd Fullarton (40:35)
And so

it was last year, Julian Shrago was there from Beachwood. yeah, Julian Shrago from Beachwood was there and he's kind of like a West Coast hero and it's kind of pathetic. I saw him sat at a table and I was like too scared to go and talk to him. was one of the most pathetic things ever. He looked almost like lonely. And I was like, oh my God, it's him. And yeah, I need to get a grip. Just a brewer. Yeah.

Martin (40:38)
I was illustrious.

Yeah,

yeah. Everyone has their like, you know, their favourite breweries and brewers that ⁓ they idolise and, you know, gives them a reason to start up their own brewery and start brewing themselves. So yeah, I can say that, know, fan out and get you your geek on and got to meet one of your idols that got you into brewing in the first place probably. Yeah.

Todd Fullarton (41:23)
Yeah. Yeah.

Martin (41:24)
Yeah, lovely. And final question, cask or keg

Todd Fullarton (41:28)
⁓

That's kind of like tough because obviously my favourite styles are German pills an West Coast pale ale and IPA so that's keg but anytime I go pub I reach for cask I love like Timmy Taylor's Jail ale down here so I don't really have a preference it's yeah

Martin (41:35)
You got Jaipur though.

Yeah.

If it's, I mean, the way I look, if I go into somewhere, if I got a good cask, I'll drink cask. ⁓ And if I haven't got a good cask, if there's nothing that jumps out to me, then I'll go keg I'm quite happily to do both. So, yeah.

Todd Fullarton (41:51)
I just thought that happens with me.

Yeah, I feel like one thing I

was about cask is that's an experience you're only going to get in a pub. So if you're in a pub, try and get some cask and like a beer X, for example, I'll just, oh my God, these, I know they're all well-kept. Yeah, I'll just go around like try all the Northern bitters and stuff. I'll never get a chance to try down here. And even dark beer on cask down here is a real rarity. So I was like, oh my God, look at all these Milds and stouts. So yeah, I don't really have a preference. Yeah, there were, yeah.

Martin (42:08)
 beautiful beers Yeah.

Yeah.

There were some lovely stouts on.

Todd Fullarton (42:23)
We won our first Cask Gold for our stout this year, we'll finally have our Cask Stout on next year at Beer X, which will be quite exciting.

Martin (42:24)
Yeah.

Yeah. Didn't you win an award at Beer X for every beer that you put on, didn't you? 

Todd Fullarton (42:36)
Yeah, we put free on

and we won gold for all three and they were also back to back to back. So I sat down, got up, sat down, got up and it was quite surreal.

Martin (42:40)
Yeah. I was in

front of you. was right in front of you when you were receiving the awards and Tim was next year as well, he, Tim Weaver? ⁓ yeah, you just literally, I don't think you even got chance to sit down at one point. You just got to your chair and then had to go straight back up again. It was quite a scene. Yeah, definitely.

Todd Fullarton (42:50)
Yeah,

Yeah, yeah, it was a good moment.

Yeah, it was a...

Yeah, I was kind of hungover from the day before, it was the day after I discovered the ship and mitre, so I was just a bit like, eugh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Martin (43:11)
A bit groggy, but happy at the same time.

A mixture of emotions going on there. ⁓ Yeah, awesome. Yeah, so yeah, we're end it there, I think. It's been absolutely amazing talking to you, Todd, and I've really enjoyed your beginnings and where you started off. ⁓

so thanks again for joining the show. And yeah, we'll be in touch. And definitely let me know and let everyone else know when you're to finally do cans. I'd love to grab a few cannies ⁓ down here in London.

Todd Fullarton (43:42)
Yeah, I will

actually do a social media post for that. That would actually be a big moment. I'll try let everyone know. Yeah, I might even give some beers to our influencers, but only ones that I know are honest. Don't blow smoke up my arse

Martin (43:49)
Todd doing a social media post.

Yeah, honest, honest feedback. That's what you want. That's the money's feedback.

Yeah, yeah, great. So yeah, thanks for joining. Thanks for coming on. And yeah, for everyone listening back at home, we'll see you back in a couple of weeks. So until then, catch you later.