Zapato Brewing & The Reality of UK Craft Beer with Matt Gorecki

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 recruitment, making sure the right people are there,

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 all of the challenges that people have with costs,

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 with duty going up, with marketing,

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 with getting beer onto lines, you know what I mean?

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 Like the competition is crazy.

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 Hello and welcome to another episode

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 of the Beer Rep chats with,

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 and today I am delighted to be joined by Matt

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 from Sepato Brewing.

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 Matt, thanks for joining the show.

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 Hiya, you alright?

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 I'm very well, thank you, and yourself?

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 Good.

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 Yes, very well, thank you, yeah.

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 Good, good.

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 Let's kick things off.

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 If you can walk us through how Sepato Brewing began,

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 and from your early days as a nomadic brewer

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 to having your own place in Marsden.

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 Yeah, it's a bit of a long story, to be honest.

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 I've been involved in,

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 I mean, I've worked in sort of service and hospitality

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 pretty much since the age of 18,

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 and I would say kind of worked with beer,

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 you know, as in, I don't like to call it craft beer,

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 I don't think it's very useful,

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 but worked with independently brewed, small brewery,

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 you know, beer since about 2005.

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 So, Sepato essentially is, you know,

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 a culmination of working with beer

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 for such a long time, really.

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 It kind of came off the back,

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 I mean, I was kind of there, very early doors.

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 I started working at a bar in Leeds,

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 which was a beer-focused bar in 2005,

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 and kind of worked up that, you know,

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 working with Belgian beers,

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 working with American-imported beers,

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 working with British cascades,

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 and subsequently then British sort of craft breweries.

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 And I worked there for 10 years.

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 And then I left to go,

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 and basically I'd sort of built a fair good network,

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 and I left sort of hospitality industry

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 to go work for myself as a freelancer.

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 And that was a bit nerve-wracking.

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 For a number of times,

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 I think I earned 175 pound a month

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 for the first three months.

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 It was a little bit scary.

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 It's more than what I'm getting.

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 Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

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 But, you know, I was lucky to be supported

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 by my wife at that point in time,

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 and, you know,

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 lucky to sort of fall on my feet a little bit.

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 Ended up doing work for all sorts of people,

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 but primarily Indy Man Beer Con.

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 I did a fair bit of work with Marble Brewery,

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 did a little bit of work with Northern Monk,

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 and so kind of fell into, you know,

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 programming and hosting events,

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 specifically beer festivals,

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 obviously Indy Man Beer Con and Hop City.

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 I was part of the founding team on Hop City.

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 And also at the same time,

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 our own projects, Leeds Beer Week,

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 and various other things, really.

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 Consultancy was very much about

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 sort of helping people with their businesses,

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 sometimes being a bit of a shoulder to cry on,

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 sometimes offering strategy,

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 building up events, all that sort of stuff.

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 Yeah, it was a nice time, to be honest with you.

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 It's quite good.

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 You know, Zapato came all off the back of that.

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 It was kind of a culmination

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 of all those experiences, really.

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 Seeing how breweries built up over time,

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 working with kind of classics,

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 well-established breweries,

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 and everything kind of got thrown

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 into the pot for Zapato, really.

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 And when we got Zapato going,

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 it was probably the absolute peak of UK craft beer,

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 I suppose, which made it really, really difficult

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 to kind of get into the market.

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 And that's kind of what we've been dealing with

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 since, really, just sort of working in a market

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 that's saturated, working in a market

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 that's kind of, you know,

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 there's a lot of amazing, kind of big players

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 with considerably bigger budgets

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 and all that sort of stuff.

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 So I would say that Zapato,

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 as much as it's sort of 10 years old now,

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 you know, been difficult to get a start.

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 A slow burner, a slow burner.

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 Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm all right with that.

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 You know what I mean?

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 You know, I think that allowing things

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 to kind of build up themselves

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 and build up through word of mouth

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 and people getting to know you

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 is probably better long term.

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 But, you know, in the short term, it's been,

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 it's quite difficult.

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 And, you know, at the end of the day,

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 I've always kind of been involved in beer,

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 kind of development,

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 has seen how things kind of kick off

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 and stuff like that.

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 So, you know, my general vibe with everything

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 was let's just try and play it kind of slowly.

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 Yeah.

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 Take our time and see what's coming next

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 rather than just trying to do what's happened

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 in the past.

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 That's the kind of, it's kind of exciting,

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 but also frustrating because essentially,

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 you know, you're trying to work in a market

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 that you're trying to think what's coming next.

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 You know what I mean?

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 And try to appeal to what's coming next, really,

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 as much as possible rather than, you know,

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 breweries, I suppose, really.

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 You get a lot of similar ideas

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 and through a lot of breweries.

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 And I think a lot of people brew

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 to what the market wants,

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 which is not an unsensible thing to do.

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 But, you know, I think it's kind of led to,

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 you know, that saturation.

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 And I don't know, a lot of similar types of beers.

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 Yeah, a lot of hazy IPAs,

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 a lot of people doing lagers,

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 a lot of people doing alcohol-free beers now as well,

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 trying to jump on that bandwagon.

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 Was you doing home brewing and stuff

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 before you started Zipato?

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 No, not really.

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 I was very privileged to do a lot of brewing

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 when I was working in hospitality.

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 So when I was working at the Barring Leeds North Bar

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 was kind of when that collaboration thing

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 really started kicking off

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 as a real kind of going concern for breweries in the UK.

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 And, you know, essentially, you know,

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 aping what was already happening in America.

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 And so, you know, we would take staff trips

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 out to breweries,

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 going to these places where, you know,

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 the brewery was just in a cellar underneath the pub.

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 And we'd do staff trips, you know,

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 and go and have a look at a brewery,

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 maybe brew a beer that was special for us,

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 go and drink in a pub, have a nice time.

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 So I got to work with tons and tons

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 and tons of people through that.

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 We brew all sorts of beers.

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 We worked with all the best breweries.

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 We brewed stuff at Kernel.

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 We brewed stuff at Marble.

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 We brewed stuff all over the place.

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 I think we did one year where North was,

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 I think, 18.

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 So we did like 18 beers, you know,

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 from stuff that we did with Kantion of all people

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 and all sorts of things, you know.

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 So when I kind of, you know,

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 it was one of the reasons why I got into,

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 you know, got into production, really,

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 was that I'd already worked with a lot of these breweries.

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 I'd seen what was going on, you know.

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 And it's also kind of one of the reasons

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 we don't do lots of collabs right now,

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 because I feel, you know,

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 we've done a lot of them already,

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 maybe not quite as a patto, you know what I mean?

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 But I did a lot of that, you know what I mean?

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 And so, you know, again, it's,

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 I think with collaboration,

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 you're looking to get something that's greater

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 than the sum of its part.

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 And I would question, you know,

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 some collaborations these days in that,

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 are they doing it for the market

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 and are they doing it because they're creating something,

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 you know, that's better, greater than the sum of its parts,

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 you know.

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 Again, you know, I think it's great,

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 I think it's lovely when people are coming together

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 and doing stuff together, you know what I mean?

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 But sometimes you sort of see collaborations

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 and you kind of a bit like,

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 well, what's this bringing to the party?

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 You know what I mean?

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 Yeah, I mean, I've spoken to quite a few breweries

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 and brewers as well.

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 And I think that the thing that they take away

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 from most of the collaborations

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 is learning new techniques from others,

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 because obviously you have all different brewers

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 brew a different way, different techniques,

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 different equipment as well.

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 And it's interesting for them to get together

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 and learn a bit.

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 Obviously not if they're collaborations

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 that they've done year after year after year.

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 I mean, this is like one-off collaborations

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 that you get to see different side of things and that.

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 Over the 10 years, since you're, you know,

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 you've refurbished a Victorian meal for your tap room.

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 And what was the vision behind creating that space

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 and for your community?

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 So the vision was to have a brewery

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 and not have a tap room or hospitality

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 because I'd done so long in hospitality

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 that this was my kind of out, you know what I mean?

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 So we went next door to a coffee roastery,

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 Dartwood's Coffee.

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 And one of the guys from there,

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 Damien, who's one of the directors,

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 I knew him from selling his coffee in the past.

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 And we moved out here about 10 years ago.

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 And Damien was like,

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 you should come and have a look,

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 there's a unit down here.

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 And so we came down to Home Mills,

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 which is sort of halfway between

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 where I live in Slathwaite to Marsden.

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 And we're sort of situated on a canal,

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 but it's an old sort of like industrial kind of

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 estate really,

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 but it's right by the river

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 and it's kind of in the woods.

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 Yeah.

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 And the landlord, when we spoke to him,

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 was really interested in sort of developing this

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 with some more sort of forward thinking,

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 producing companies,

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 bringing the whole site a little bit more customer facing.

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 And so we started here.

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 I sort of tatted around,

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 rattling around in this big unit

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 after we'd taken it on for a while,

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 wondering what I would do with it.

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 Planned to put Brewery in.

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 I was, I don't know,

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 days away from sort of landing on a kit.

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 It was actually the kit that used to belong to Verdon.

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 It's now ended up, I think, at Shore Shop in Manchester,

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 but probably to the great frustration of Verdon,

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 I had to pull out sort of three or four months

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 into the pandemic,

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 because I don't know whether we really knew

257
00:09:54.510 --> 00:09:57.270
 whether it was going to be a market to sell beer into

258
00:09:57.270 --> 00:09:59.370
 after that, those early days.

259
00:10:00.450 --> 00:10:02.170
 So yeah, we put that on ice.

260
00:10:02.890 --> 00:10:04.790
 And I think the most in, you know,

261
00:10:04.810 --> 00:10:06.730
 I suppose towards the end of the pandemic,

262
00:10:06.810 --> 00:10:09.170
 really just tilted towards hospitality,

263
00:10:09.170 --> 00:10:11.030
 because that's what I know how to do.

264
00:10:11.250 --> 00:10:11.630
 Yeah.

265
00:10:11.630 --> 00:10:17.030
 And, you know, we've just now acquired a second unit.

266
00:10:17.270 --> 00:10:19.150
 So we'll have another pass at a brewery again,

267
00:10:19.150 --> 00:10:20.830
 I think, this year,

268
00:10:20.870 --> 00:10:22.550
 and start getting back into production

269
00:10:22.550 --> 00:10:25.510
 and flip the company back around the way it should be.

270
00:10:27.230 --> 00:10:28.430
 Do what you was planning to do

271
00:10:28.430 --> 00:10:29.710
 before the pandemic kind of thing.

272
00:10:30.190 --> 00:10:30.570
 Yeah, yeah.

273
00:10:30.750 --> 00:10:32.230
 Yeah, I've still got things on my list.

274
00:10:32.650 --> 00:10:34.530
 So all the beers that you brew at the moment

275
00:10:34.530 --> 00:10:36.570
 are brewed in other breweries?

276
00:10:36.970 --> 00:10:38.090
 Yeah, we brew in Leeds.

277
00:10:38.570 --> 00:10:40.510
 So we work a place called Springwell.

278
00:10:40.510 --> 00:10:42.870
 Sort of big professional brewery in Leeds.

279
00:10:42.970 --> 00:10:45.890
 We bounced around all sorts of places over the years.

280
00:10:47.050 --> 00:10:48.090
 So we've brewed, you know,

281
00:10:48.150 --> 00:10:51.370
 we've brewed with many of the people, you know,

282
00:10:51.550 --> 00:10:53.830
 who inspired me in the first place, I suppose.

283
00:10:54.290 --> 00:10:57.830
 Spent a decent year and a bit working at Northern Monk.

284
00:10:58.850 --> 00:11:02.370
 You know, we've worked with loads of different people now.

285
00:11:02.570 --> 00:11:03.890
 So yeah, I think, I don't know,

286
00:11:04.150 --> 00:11:06.490
 people are funny about brewing elsewhere

287
00:11:06.490 --> 00:11:08.150
 and not making your own.

288
00:11:08.870 --> 00:11:09.330
 Yeah.

289
00:11:09.330 --> 00:11:11.390
 But, you know, to my mind,

290
00:11:11.390 --> 00:11:14.090
 it's much more difficult to sort of get someone else

291
00:11:14.090 --> 00:11:17.150
 to brew quality beer the same time after time after time

292
00:11:17.150 --> 00:11:18.050
 when it's not their beer.

293
00:11:19.090 --> 00:11:19.170
 Yes.

294
00:11:19.270 --> 00:11:21.110
 So how does the process work?

295
00:11:21.150 --> 00:11:23.910
 Do you obviously create recipes yourself or?

296
00:11:25.130 --> 00:11:27.810
 Yeah, in the early days, you know,

297
00:11:27.830 --> 00:11:31.230
 I was just physically brewing everything on site,

298
00:11:31.250 --> 00:11:34.430
 but as we've grown and as my job sort of changed,

299
00:11:34.450 --> 00:11:36.670
 you know, it's about getting subtle recipes.

300
00:11:36.830 --> 00:11:38.810
 It's about quality control, you know,

301
00:11:38.810 --> 00:11:42.390
 making sure we have good relationships with our suppliers.

302
00:11:42.870 --> 00:11:46.230
 And, you know, not a lot's changed

303
00:11:46.230 --> 00:11:47.830
 in the beers that we brew.

304
00:11:48.050 --> 00:11:51.830
 You know, we kind of have a fairly settled range

305
00:11:53.390 --> 00:11:55.070
 and there's an amount of invention,

306
00:11:55.290 --> 00:11:56.650
 there's an amount of familiarity.

307
00:11:56.830 --> 00:11:58.210
 You know, we do a number of beers

308
00:11:58.210 --> 00:12:00.170
 that satisfy certain markets.

309
00:12:00.330 --> 00:12:02.550
 I mean, when I first started the brewery,

310
00:12:02.570 --> 00:12:03.330
 you know, the rule was

311
00:12:03.330 --> 00:12:06.050
 we'd never brew anything under 6.5%.

312
00:12:06.570 --> 00:12:08.630
 And as soon as, you know,

313
00:12:08.850 --> 00:12:11.650
 as soon as that strategy was exposed to the daylight,

314
00:12:11.870 --> 00:12:15.830
 Stoltz figured that it wasn't really a good way to be.

315
00:12:16.770 --> 00:12:18.290
 And, you know, if you've got hospitality,

316
00:12:18.550 --> 00:12:21.290
 you know, you need steady away drinks

317
00:12:21.290 --> 00:12:24.610
 and the strong beer market is not that big.

318
00:12:25.830 --> 00:12:27.390
 No, I think most people are brewing

319
00:12:27.390 --> 00:12:29.510
 like IPAs at 6.5%.

320
00:12:29.510 --> 00:12:31.110
 I think that's kind of like the standard.

321
00:12:32.570 --> 00:12:33.990
 Dippers are starting to slow down a bit.

322
00:12:33.990 --> 00:12:36.230
 I think they're kind of like a one-off special

323
00:12:36.230 --> 00:12:39.470
 that you might see a couple of from breweries each year,

324
00:12:39.730 --> 00:12:40.850
 unless obviously the breweries

325
00:12:40.850 --> 00:12:42.690
 that are brewing them on a regular.

326
00:12:43.510 --> 00:12:45.390
 But yeah, I think there used to be a big massive boom

327
00:12:45.390 --> 00:12:47.210
 for like double IPAs at one point.

328
00:12:47.430 --> 00:12:48.870
 And it was just, they were just everywhere.

329
00:12:49.250 --> 00:12:50.790
 And now it's kind of slowed down a bit.

330
00:12:51.810 --> 00:12:52.250
 So, yeah.

331
00:12:52.390 --> 00:12:54.250
 Well, I suppose what I saw

332
00:12:54.250 --> 00:12:56.470
 and it kind of hit the high water mark

333
00:12:56.470 --> 00:12:58.910
 during the pandemic, you know.

334
00:12:59.410 --> 00:13:00.930
 Breweries got really, really excited.

335
00:13:00.970 --> 00:13:03.190
 And again, it's that sort of American influence

336
00:13:03.190 --> 00:13:05.510
 as well as Belgium, you know what I mean?

337
00:13:05.530 --> 00:13:07.610
 Belgium makes a ton of strong beers, you know.

338
00:13:07.750 --> 00:13:10.430
 And so, you know, for me, like if you're making strong beer,

339
00:13:10.530 --> 00:13:12.450
 it gives you a lot of places to kind of hide.

340
00:13:12.790 --> 00:13:13.090
 Yeah.

341
00:13:13.470 --> 00:13:15.770
 Again, for me, they still need to be brewed properly.

342
00:13:16.250 --> 00:13:20.570
 I mean, I've tasted quite a few ABV beers 8% wise

343
00:13:20.570 --> 00:13:22.790
 and you can really taste the alcohol in them.

344
00:13:22.930 --> 00:13:24.670
 And for that, for me, that just kills

345
00:13:24.670 --> 00:13:27.310
 any sort of hop flavor or aroma that's inside there.

346
00:13:27.650 --> 00:13:29.330
 It's, they've got to be balanced

347
00:13:29.330 --> 00:13:30.430
 just like anything else.

348
00:13:30.570 --> 00:13:31.010
 Yeah.

349
00:13:31.010 --> 00:13:33.230
 But I think a lot of people just were like,

350
00:13:33.230 --> 00:13:34.790
 oh yeah, let's make double IPAs, that's great.

351
00:13:34.850 --> 00:13:36.550
 Let's just throw hops at stuff, you know what I mean?

352
00:13:36.970 --> 00:13:38.750
 And Imperial stouts and all that sort of stuff.

353
00:13:38.770 --> 00:13:40.830
 And then you have things like untapped

354
00:13:41.930 --> 00:13:44.250
 which literally rewards that sort of brewing,

355
00:13:44.370 --> 00:13:44.890
 you know what I mean?

356
00:13:45.070 --> 00:13:47.170
 Like if you want to get good ratings on untapped,

357
00:13:47.310 --> 00:13:49.650
 then make smoothies and Imperial stouts

358
00:13:49.650 --> 00:13:50.390
 and double IPAs.

359
00:13:50.510 --> 00:13:50.930
 You know what I mean?

360
00:13:51.050 --> 00:13:52.210
 That's how to get your thing up.

361
00:13:52.530 --> 00:13:54.750
 And you know, a lot of breweries followed that route

362
00:13:54.750 --> 00:13:56.490
 and some of them have done really well out of it

363
00:13:56.490 --> 00:13:58.230
 and some of them not so much, you know.

364
00:13:58.970 --> 00:14:01.750
 But certainly I think double IPAs dropped off.

365
00:14:02.870 --> 00:14:05.430
 You know, back end of that pandemic era really

366
00:14:05.430 --> 00:14:08.270
 when people were at home drinking really strong beer

367
00:14:08.270 --> 00:14:11.030
 and falling asleep on the sofa and waking up,

368
00:14:11.090 --> 00:14:12.950
 you know, feeling terrible, right?

369
00:14:13.010 --> 00:14:13.510
 You know what I mean?

370
00:14:13.650 --> 00:14:15.950
 And actually, you know, at the end of the day,

371
00:14:17.850 --> 00:14:19.410
 you can't, especially in the UK,

372
00:14:19.530 --> 00:14:21.990
 you can't get away from session drinking, right?

373
00:14:22.090 --> 00:14:24.270
 You know, that is British beer culture,

374
00:14:24.310 --> 00:14:26.510
 you know, in a nutshell is that we're gonna,

375
00:14:26.510 --> 00:14:28.410
 you know, we want to have several pints of,

376
00:14:28.410 --> 00:14:30.170
 you know, comparatively weak beer.

377
00:14:32.630 --> 00:14:35.710
 Give me a lovely juicy table pail any day.

378
00:14:36.170 --> 00:14:36.910
 Yeah, absolutely.

379
00:14:37.170 --> 00:14:38.130
 Yeah, yeah, definitely.

380
00:14:38.270 --> 00:14:39.790
 And then, you know, if you're out socializing,

381
00:14:39.930 --> 00:14:41.190
 you can't really be stood around

382
00:14:41.190 --> 00:14:43.210
 drinking double IPAs and Imperial stouts

383
00:14:43.210 --> 00:14:44.610
 because you're gonna be on the floor, right?

384
00:14:44.690 --> 00:14:45.150
 Yeah, definitely.

385
00:14:45.530 --> 00:14:46.750
 But do you think, it's a quick question,

386
00:14:46.970 --> 00:14:49.910
 but what do you think the advantages and disadvantages

387
00:14:49.910 --> 00:14:55.330
 are of brewing your beers in other breweries

388
00:14:55.330 --> 00:14:56.530
 compared to if you had your own?

389
00:14:56.670 --> 00:14:59.810
 We get access to good quality equipment,

390
00:15:00.510 --> 00:15:01.690
 professional trained brewers.

391
00:15:01.950 --> 00:15:04.410
 You know, if we bugger up a batch at our side,

392
00:15:04.470 --> 00:15:05.610
 then it's gotta go down the drain.

393
00:15:06.050 --> 00:15:06.390
 Yeah.

394
00:15:06.450 --> 00:15:08.390
 If there's any problems with the beer the other way,

395
00:15:08.430 --> 00:15:09.750
 we've got a little bit of comeback on it,

396
00:15:09.770 --> 00:15:10.190
 you know what I mean?

397
00:15:10.210 --> 00:15:12.310
 We've got a relationship, you know, that helps.

398
00:15:12.730 --> 00:15:14.450
 I think, you know, the costs

399
00:15:14.450 --> 00:15:16.290
 and the physical aspects of it, you know,

400
00:15:16.290 --> 00:15:18.630
 I've saved myself 350,000 pounds

401
00:15:18.630 --> 00:15:20.250
 by not installing a brewery.

402
00:15:20.310 --> 00:15:22.090
 Yeah, you know, that's really great.

403
00:15:22.850 --> 00:15:26.650
 And also, if, you know, looking at the price of kit

404
00:15:26.650 --> 00:15:28.150
 now in comparison, you know,

405
00:15:28.150 --> 00:15:32.070
 we're looking at 80% decline on brew kit costs

406
00:15:32.870 --> 00:15:36.450
 right now as opposed to sort of seven or eight years ago.

407
00:15:37.270 --> 00:15:40.230
 So I won't be spending 350,000 pounds

408
00:15:40.230 --> 00:15:41.530
 on a brew kit this time around.

409
00:15:41.830 --> 00:15:43.210
 It'd be a lot cheaper, that's for sure.

410
00:15:43.450 --> 00:15:45.150
 It'll be a damn sight cheaper, yeah.

411
00:15:45.390 --> 00:15:48.370
 You know, so, you know, a little bit more dynamic,

412
00:15:48.470 --> 00:15:49.690
 a little bit quicker, you know what I mean?

413
00:15:49.770 --> 00:15:52.010
 But, you know, there's an authenticity aspect

414
00:15:52.010 --> 00:15:53.490
 to it and people, you know,

415
00:15:53.710 --> 00:15:55.210
 some people don't trust that, right?

416
00:15:55.310 --> 00:15:55.750
 You know what I mean?

417
00:15:56.150 --> 00:15:57.070
 They wanna, you know,

418
00:15:57.070 --> 00:15:58.170
 they wanna see the nuts and bolts.

419
00:15:58.650 --> 00:16:02.090
 So, you know, there's that aspect of it as well

420
00:16:02.090 --> 00:16:04.370
 because some people don't quite take it seriously

421
00:16:04.370 --> 00:16:06.210
 despite the fact that, you know,

422
00:16:06.290 --> 00:16:08.270
 you're specking recipes, you're tweaking recipes,

423
00:16:08.650 --> 00:16:09.210
 you're, you know,

424
00:16:09.210 --> 00:16:11.570
 you're doing everything that I would do normally.

425
00:16:12.250 --> 00:16:12.990
 You know, as I say,

426
00:16:12.990 --> 00:16:14.450
 I used to do a lot of physical brewing.

427
00:16:14.590 --> 00:16:16.670
 I don't do as much physical brewing anymore.

428
00:16:16.910 --> 00:16:17.750
 And whilst I like it,

429
00:16:17.750 --> 00:16:19.390
 I wouldn't wanna be doing it week in, week out,

430
00:16:19.430 --> 00:16:19.930
 you know what I mean?

431
00:16:19.990 --> 00:16:21.690
 So, you know, when we've got a brewery,

432
00:16:21.690 --> 00:16:22.770
 we will deploy a brewer.

433
00:16:23.070 --> 00:16:24.910
 And the process will be the same

434
00:16:24.910 --> 00:16:27.010
 as the process that I have now

435
00:16:27.010 --> 00:16:29.610
 with working with breweries, brewers elsewhere.

436
00:16:30.630 --> 00:16:32.050
 What do you think would be the, you know,

437
00:16:33.130 --> 00:16:35.110
 the biggest, the toughest challenge you think you'll face

438
00:16:35.110 --> 00:16:36.630
 when you do open up your own,

439
00:16:36.630 --> 00:16:38.150
 your own site and your own brewery?

440
00:16:38.250 --> 00:16:38.890
 Good question.

441
00:16:40.110 --> 00:16:42.990
 We're trying to create something a little bit more

442
00:16:42.990 --> 00:16:43.870
 than what we've got at the moment.

443
00:16:44.030 --> 00:16:45.630
 I think adding, adding production

444
00:16:45.630 --> 00:16:48.810
 just literally adds challenges like fright and censor.

445
00:16:48.810 --> 00:16:49.150
 Yeah.

446
00:16:49.310 --> 00:16:50.450
 Again, recruitment,

447
00:16:50.450 --> 00:16:52.350
 making sure the right people are there.

448
00:16:52.990 --> 00:16:55.750
 All of the challenges that people have with costs,

449
00:16:56.590 --> 00:16:57.870
 with duty going up,

450
00:16:58.510 --> 00:17:01.570
 with marketing, with getting beer onto lines,

451
00:17:01.670 --> 00:17:02.150
 you know what I mean?

452
00:17:02.290 --> 00:17:04.210
 Like the competition is crazy at the moment.

453
00:17:05.069 --> 00:17:07.569
 And, you know, there's a concerted effort

454
00:17:07.569 --> 00:17:10.190
 by the bigger breweries, you know,

455
00:17:10.470 --> 00:17:14.310
 your Heineken-owned London beaver-themed breweries

456
00:17:14.310 --> 00:17:17.450
 or kind of, you know, your Guinness,

457
00:17:17.849 --> 00:17:19.230
 you know, all the things

458
00:17:19.230 --> 00:17:21.990
 that are currently causing challenges that, you know,

459
00:17:21.990 --> 00:17:23.930
 they can send a rep into one of a venue

460
00:17:23.930 --> 00:17:26.410
 where we sell beer and they can wave a wad of cash

461
00:17:26.410 --> 00:17:29.330
 in front of the owner who's not selling enough beer

462
00:17:29.330 --> 00:17:30.250
 to pay his bills.

463
00:17:31.030 --> 00:17:31.750
 He's going to take it.

464
00:17:31.870 --> 00:17:32.190
 You know what I mean?

465
00:17:32.350 --> 00:17:34.130
 I can't offer some what, 10 grand.

466
00:17:34.450 --> 00:17:35.210
 Tie up all them lines.

467
00:17:35.770 --> 00:17:36.010
 Yeah.

468
00:17:36.410 --> 00:17:38.510
 So it's the same as anything else.

469
00:17:38.510 --> 00:17:40.250
 And it's the same challenges that we've got now.

470
00:17:40.370 --> 00:17:43.550
 We're fighting against vastly equipped other breweries.

471
00:17:43.610 --> 00:17:45.730
 You know, we're fighting against Guinness, right?

472
00:17:45.850 --> 00:17:46.290
 You know what I mean?

473
00:17:46.310 --> 00:17:47.650
 Guinness is huge at the moment.

474
00:17:47.650 --> 00:17:49.510
 You know, we're fighting against neck oil.

475
00:17:49.570 --> 00:17:51.190
 You know, we're fighting against people branded

476
00:17:51.190 --> 00:17:53.190
 like Independence who are not Independence.

477
00:17:53.890 --> 00:17:54.090
 Yeah.

478
00:17:54.190 --> 00:17:57.110
 You know, we're fighting against customer apathy

479
00:17:57.110 --> 00:17:58.050
 right now at the moment.

480
00:17:58.210 --> 00:17:58.670
 You know what I mean?

481
00:17:58.690 --> 00:18:00.390
 I think there's still a very engaged

482
00:18:00.390 --> 00:18:02.150
 and motivated craft beer community,

483
00:18:02.150 --> 00:18:05.150
 but I think if you compare the size of that community

484
00:18:05.150 --> 00:18:08.510
 to what it was 10 years ago, it's strong.

485
00:18:09.190 --> 00:18:10.110
 Yeah, yeah.

486
00:18:10.150 --> 00:18:14.210
 I think we've got a section of community which,

487
00:18:14.490 --> 00:18:16.410
 again, you know, you look at your untapped

488
00:18:16.410 --> 00:18:17.470
 kind of stuff, you know what I mean?

489
00:18:17.470 --> 00:18:19.890
 You've got a section of the community that is really

490
00:18:19.890 --> 00:18:23.650
 only concerned about strong Imperial stouts,

491
00:18:23.890 --> 00:18:25.390
 double IPAs, smoothies.

492
00:18:25.730 --> 00:18:27.930
 And there's not a lot of space for the other stuff,

493
00:18:27.970 --> 00:18:30.490
 even though the other stuff is what sells, right?

494
00:18:30.510 --> 00:18:31.130
 And what makes money.

495
00:18:31.770 --> 00:18:32.410
 Yeah, yeah, of course.

496
00:18:32.830 --> 00:18:34.710
 So I think, I don't know, I think, you know,

497
00:18:34.830 --> 00:18:36.810
 talking to Jim, who's my salesman,

498
00:18:36.950 --> 00:18:39.490
 I used to work at North Meal those years ago.

499
00:18:40.390 --> 00:18:42.990
 You know, there's frustration in that we spent

500
00:18:42.990 --> 00:18:45.550
 a long time trying to educate people

501
00:18:45.550 --> 00:18:48.310
 about what independent brewing really is about

502
00:18:48.310 --> 00:18:50.930
 and what small brewing, small company brewing is about.

503
00:18:51.570 --> 00:18:54.690
 How do you see the UK indie beer market evolving

504
00:18:54.690 --> 00:18:56.990
 in the future and where would you put yourselves in that?

505
00:18:57.350 --> 00:18:58.750
 I think at the moment, you know,

506
00:18:59.230 --> 00:19:01.670
 what we're seeing is that people are supporting local

507
00:19:01.670 --> 00:19:04.150
 and actually the sort of the distribution model

508
00:19:04.150 --> 00:19:06.030
 in the UK has broken a little bit.

509
00:19:06.790 --> 00:19:08.690
 There was a point where distributors were really

510
00:19:08.690 --> 00:19:10.250
 taking on lots and lots of different brands

511
00:19:10.250 --> 00:19:11.510
 and helping breweries out.

512
00:19:11.930 --> 00:19:13.330
 Distribution has got a lot safer.

513
00:19:13.790 --> 00:19:16.890
 And also bigger concerns have come into distribution as well

514
00:19:16.890 --> 00:19:19.330
 where they're sort of working with even bigger people

515
00:19:19.330 --> 00:19:22.050
 and, you know, sometimes the multinational breweries

516
00:19:22.050 --> 00:19:23.010
 to get their products in.

517
00:19:23.350 --> 00:19:23.390
 Yeah.

518
00:19:23.790 --> 00:19:25.710
 But what we're seeing is that, essentially,

519
00:19:26.010 --> 00:19:28.170
 that, you know, in the markets that we serve

520
00:19:28.170 --> 00:19:30.410
 quite regularly is that people are a little bit more,

521
00:19:30.410 --> 00:19:32.810
 you know, a little bit more support in their local,

522
00:19:33.290 --> 00:19:36.130
 you know, which you can't really complain about at all.

523
00:19:36.610 --> 00:19:36.830
 Yeah.

524
00:19:36.890 --> 00:19:40.410
 You know, the amount of taps is sort of reduced

525
00:19:40.410 --> 00:19:42.330
 that's available, you know what I mean?

526
00:19:42.990 --> 00:19:44.830
 But then quite a lot of operators,

527
00:19:45.590 --> 00:19:48.050
 I suppose, you know, quite a lot of operators

528
00:19:48.050 --> 00:19:52.410
 got a bit overexcited about putting in 20 taps,

529
00:19:52.410 --> 00:19:54.310
 you know, which is crazy.

530
00:19:55.210 --> 00:19:56.910
 Sometimes it's too much, isn't it?

531
00:19:56.970 --> 00:20:01.270
 Having too many options is a bit daunting to anyone

532
00:20:01.270 --> 00:20:02.090
 when they're standing there.

533
00:20:02.090 --> 00:20:04.150
 They don't want to stand there for 10 minutes

534
00:20:04.150 --> 00:20:06.070
 looking at how many beers or what beers you've got

535
00:20:06.070 --> 00:20:07.470
 and they just want something, you know,

536
00:20:07.530 --> 00:20:10.350
 a simple eight taps line up, done.

537
00:20:10.910 --> 00:20:11.830
 I'll choose from that.

538
00:20:13.070 --> 00:20:13.530
 Yeah, totally.

539
00:20:13.950 --> 00:20:16.630
 I mean, I sort of, I go in anywhere and I see,

540
00:20:16.630 --> 00:20:19.430
 you know, if you see more than eight or 10 taps,

541
00:20:19.570 --> 00:20:20.070
 you know what I mean?

542
00:20:20.090 --> 00:20:22.050
 You're just like, oh my God, that's such an investment

543
00:20:22.050 --> 00:20:25.590
 because every single tap has to have one keg on

544
00:20:25.590 --> 00:20:26.590
 that's sitting there.

545
00:20:26.650 --> 00:20:29.490
 So that's, what, 100 odd quid, something like that.

546
00:20:29.490 --> 00:20:31.090
 And then they have to have one come on after that.

547
00:20:31.090 --> 00:20:32.110
 So that's another 100 quid.

548
00:20:32.270 --> 00:20:33.230
 And then if they, you know,

549
00:20:33.910 --> 00:20:35.910
 for every single line, there's a cost.

550
00:20:36.750 --> 00:20:38.470
 And I think that's why quite a lot of those sort

551
00:20:38.470 --> 00:20:40.930
 of craft beer bars and bottle shops have struggled

552
00:20:40.930 --> 00:20:43.610
 because, you know, they're trying to offer a cornucopia

553
00:20:43.610 --> 00:20:44.590
 of everything, you know what I mean?

554
00:20:44.710 --> 00:20:46.750
 Rather than kind of going, okay, well, you know,

555
00:20:46.750 --> 00:20:47.870
 this works and this works

556
00:20:47.870 --> 00:20:49.150
 and this is for that sort of person.

557
00:20:49.210 --> 00:20:50.410
 This is for that sort of person.

558
00:20:50.970 --> 00:20:53.750
 And all that happens is you just have slow moving lines

559
00:20:53.750 --> 00:20:56.490
 and they're just sitting there, just, you know,

560
00:20:56.650 --> 00:20:58.190
 doing, not selling, not moving

561
00:20:58.190 --> 00:21:00.510
 and you're struggling to get rid of,

562
00:21:00.710 --> 00:21:04.650
 say for instance, a more unique style of beer.

563
00:21:05.330 --> 00:21:06.590
 I won't mention what styles

564
00:21:06.590 --> 00:21:07.670
 because, you know, everyone's different,

565
00:21:07.670 --> 00:21:09.690
 but yeah, you just have a couple of beers

566
00:21:09.690 --> 00:21:10.910
 that are different styles,

567
00:21:11.370 --> 00:21:13.750
 not your usual session pals, for instance.

568
00:21:14.150 --> 00:21:15.690
 And they take ages to sell.

569
00:21:16.370 --> 00:21:19.390
 I've known this for my time in the hospitality industry

570
00:21:19.390 --> 00:21:21.870
 that, you know, if you've got too much option,

571
00:21:22.590 --> 00:21:25.770
 then customers will still choose what they want.

572
00:21:25.830 --> 00:21:27.150
 They'll still go for a session pal.

573
00:21:27.670 --> 00:21:29.170
 And all the other things that you put on

574
00:21:29.170 --> 00:21:31.470
 to try and convince people,

575
00:21:31.550 --> 00:21:32.970
 oh, you got to try this, you must try this.

576
00:21:32.990 --> 00:21:33.970
 This is a beautiful beer.

577
00:21:34.470 --> 00:21:35.970
 It tends to slow, doesn't sell.

578
00:21:36.010 --> 00:21:37.050
 And that's always the issue.

579
00:21:37.470 --> 00:21:38.110
 Yeah, exactly.

580
00:21:38.210 --> 00:21:40.050
 And there's just money locked up in the cellar, right?

581
00:21:40.190 --> 00:21:40.550
 You know what I mean?

582
00:21:40.730 --> 00:21:42.590
 There's just hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pounds.

583
00:21:42.870 --> 00:21:44.890
 Like I went into a pub just before Christmas

584
00:21:44.890 --> 00:21:48.010
 and my gosh, they had maybe nine cast lines.

585
00:21:48.130 --> 00:21:51.490
 They had 20 lines on a board of craft beer.

586
00:21:51.550 --> 00:21:53.670
 And then they have maybe four fonts

587
00:21:53.670 --> 00:21:57.070
 each with four different beers on as well,

588
00:21:57.610 --> 00:22:00.210
 ranging from like Kronenberg 1664

589
00:22:00.210 --> 00:22:02.450
 to Guiness to whatever, you know what I mean?

590
00:22:03.030 --> 00:22:04.430
 And, you know, you look at it, you've got like,

591
00:22:04.430 --> 00:22:07.190
 wow, you've got like 20 grand locked up in the cellar.

592
00:22:08.150 --> 00:22:10.010
 You know, of just stock, right?

593
00:22:10.010 --> 00:22:10.570
 You know what I mean?

594
00:22:10.630 --> 00:22:13.130
 So again, it's that kind of understanding really.

595
00:22:13.470 --> 00:22:14.050
 I don't know.

596
00:22:14.390 --> 00:22:15.610
 I think it's great to have variety,

597
00:22:15.730 --> 00:22:16.030
 you know what I mean?

598
00:22:16.090 --> 00:22:16.990
 But how much variety?

599
00:22:17.290 --> 00:22:17.950
 At the end of the day,

600
00:22:17.950 --> 00:22:20.230
 you're always going to sell four times much larger

601
00:22:20.230 --> 00:22:22.050
 than you will do, probably pay a little,

602
00:22:22.150 --> 00:22:22.670
 you know what I mean?

603
00:22:23.090 --> 00:22:24.410
 So, you know, paradise that.

604
00:22:25.050 --> 00:22:27.070
 And it'd be realistic, I think.

605
00:22:28.010 --> 00:22:28.730
 Definitely, yeah.

606
00:22:29.430 --> 00:22:33.130
 So what's next for Sabato in the next year or two?

607
00:22:33.130 --> 00:22:35.150
 You know, more events.

608
00:22:35.450 --> 00:22:37.010
 So we're trying to expand.

609
00:22:37.270 --> 00:22:37.650
 You know what I mean?

610
00:22:37.790 --> 00:22:39.570
 We're trying to increase the footprint.

611
00:22:40.150 --> 00:22:41.350
 We do a bit called Onwards,

612
00:22:41.470 --> 00:22:44.130
 which is 4% Pay-A-Low, cheapest thing on the list,

613
00:22:44.130 --> 00:22:47.170
 which is pretty solid, hazy,

614
00:22:47.730 --> 00:22:50.590
 but also crisp, a little bit of bitterness,

615
00:22:51.330 --> 00:22:52.610
 and balanced, that's the thing.

616
00:22:52.930 --> 00:22:54.730
 So, you know, we're looking for taps for that.

617
00:22:54.830 --> 00:22:57.030
 We're looking to try and really sort of

618
00:22:57.030 --> 00:22:58.790
 get as much Onwards out there as possible

619
00:22:58.790 --> 00:23:00.190
 and then build on what we're doing

620
00:23:00.190 --> 00:23:00.950
 with everything else.

621
00:23:01.330 --> 00:23:02.570
 Adding a brewery.

622
00:23:02.570 --> 00:23:04.790
 And so we've just acquired a site next door,

623
00:23:06.090 --> 00:23:09.890
 so a little bit of change around on the site over here,

624
00:23:10.170 --> 00:23:11.850
 which has just opened up another unit,

625
00:23:11.870 --> 00:23:13.410
 which is a little bit more suitable

626
00:23:13.890 --> 00:23:16.250
 for the brewery than our current warehouse.

627
00:23:16.570 --> 00:23:19.750
 So we're moving a few little bits and bobs around

628
00:23:19.750 --> 00:23:22.250
 and just looking to put a smaller kit in there.

629
00:23:22.830 --> 00:23:24.730
 So that will be, we've kind of,

630
00:23:24.870 --> 00:23:26.970
 I found it difficult to get consistent cask beer,

631
00:23:27.130 --> 00:23:28.330
 not in terms of the quality of the beer,

632
00:23:28.530 --> 00:23:29.730
 the quality's always been solid,

633
00:23:29.730 --> 00:23:32.850
 but just consistent turnover of our sort of cask brands.

634
00:23:33.210 --> 00:23:34.910
 So I think that we'll brew a smaller,

635
00:23:35.550 --> 00:23:37.790
 put a small brewery in there.

636
00:23:37.990 --> 00:23:40.010
 Brew permanent stout, permanent bitter,

637
00:23:40.170 --> 00:23:43.670
 permanent pale ale, and one or two specials,

638
00:23:43.670 --> 00:23:45.610
 really to sort of just deliver.

639
00:23:45.710 --> 00:23:47.070
 We've never really been able to deliver

640
00:23:47.070 --> 00:23:47.850
 properly on cask.

641
00:23:47.870 --> 00:23:51.390
 We've always had one or two or three cask lines,

642
00:23:51.970 --> 00:23:54.390
 and so get a bit of variety in the cask, really.

643
00:23:54.850 --> 00:23:56.910
 It'll also allow us to focus on, you know,

644
00:23:57.070 --> 00:23:58.710
 smaller batches and specials,

645
00:23:58.710 --> 00:24:00.430
 so we get a little bit more turnaround,

646
00:24:00.710 --> 00:24:04.930
 more new stuff, as much as I'm very much, you know,

647
00:24:05.130 --> 00:24:07.330
 of the opinion that a recognizable core range

648
00:24:07.330 --> 00:24:09.870
 is what I want to do these days, you know what I mean?

649
00:24:10.710 --> 00:24:12.930
 You know, just still have the specials

650
00:24:12.930 --> 00:24:14.090
 and just sort of get them.

651
00:24:14.110 --> 00:24:15.450
 At the moment, we're brewing the specials

652
00:24:15.450 --> 00:24:17.590
 at a high volume, and actually, you know,

653
00:24:17.670 --> 00:24:19.610
 we could brew a little bit less of those

654
00:24:19.610 --> 00:24:21.230
 and get a throughput a little bit more.

655
00:24:22.250 --> 00:24:24.570
 So, and also just getting into production.

656
00:24:25.070 --> 00:24:27.370
 We grow vegetables here, we grow fruit here.

657
00:24:28.050 --> 00:24:29.990
 You know, there's lots of things we can do

658
00:24:29.990 --> 00:24:31.530
 with food as well as drink.

659
00:24:32.510 --> 00:24:36.370
 So, you know, that kind of, you know, be quite nice.

660
00:24:36.710 --> 00:24:39.950
 I can maybe move away from some of the company

661
00:24:39.950 --> 00:24:41.910
 director roles and get a little bit more

662
00:24:41.910 --> 00:24:43.190
 back into production.

663
00:24:43.650 --> 00:24:45.870
 You know, a bit less operations, a little bit more,

664
00:24:46.070 --> 00:24:48.370
 kind of, you know, making stuff,

665
00:24:48.370 --> 00:24:51.470
 which, you know, I quite like the idea of, you know.

666
00:24:51.490 --> 00:24:52.850
 What sort of size kit are you looking to get?

667
00:24:54.650 --> 00:24:57.370
 Probably around 10 to 15 hectolitres.

668
00:24:57.390 --> 00:24:59.050
 Okay, so that's a reasonable amount.

669
00:24:59.210 --> 00:25:00.770
 That's quite a big kit.

670
00:25:01.230 --> 00:25:02.990
 Decent size, yeah, decent size.

671
00:25:03.230 --> 00:25:05.690
 But that'll do us, you know what I mean?

672
00:25:05.850 --> 00:25:08.130
 And still brew the sort of volume stuff

673
00:25:08.130 --> 00:25:10.730
 away from the site, you know, with a good host.

674
00:25:11.170 --> 00:25:13.030
 So, yeah, I mean, that's pretty exciting, really.

675
00:25:13.090 --> 00:25:13.490
 You know what I mean?

676
00:25:13.590 --> 00:25:14.990
 And actually kind of, you know,

677
00:25:15.070 --> 00:25:18.010
 having had 10 years of here, of, you know,

678
00:25:18.210 --> 00:25:20.010
 difficult market and, you know,

679
00:25:20.090 --> 00:25:22.350
 trying to build everything with our own finance

680
00:25:23.190 --> 00:25:25.510
 to putting a brewery in

681
00:25:25.510 --> 00:25:27.810
 and having a bit of a fresh start, really.

682
00:25:27.810 --> 00:25:28.130
 Yeah.

683
00:25:28.430 --> 00:25:29.970
 Kind of up for that at the moment.

684
00:25:30.370 --> 00:25:32.890
 Five or six years has been about survival,

685
00:25:33.390 --> 00:25:36.890
 you know, and we're in a place where it's 2026

686
00:25:36.890 --> 00:25:38.270
 and it's the 4th of February.

687
00:25:38.710 --> 00:25:40.590
 So I'm kind of like, okay, well,

688
00:25:40.590 --> 00:25:42.550
 let's move on from survival now.

689
00:25:42.630 --> 00:25:44.490
 Yeah, it's good to be in a position

690
00:25:44.490 --> 00:25:46.370
 where you can move forward though, isn't it, as well?

691
00:25:46.470 --> 00:25:48.410
 I mean, like you said, it's been five, six years

692
00:25:48.410 --> 00:25:50.310
 where you've just literally just been getting by

693
00:25:50.310 --> 00:25:52.790
 and now you're in a position to expand,

694
00:25:53.210 --> 00:25:55.370
 get some brewing kit in

695
00:25:55.370 --> 00:25:57.130
 and start brewing some beers on site.

696
00:25:57.710 --> 00:26:00.990
 I mean, that's obviously got to be a great position to be in

697
00:26:00.990 --> 00:26:03.650
 and hopefully there'll be no more pandemics in the future.

698
00:26:05.710 --> 00:26:07.630
 We don't want that happening again, that's for sure.

699
00:26:07.630 --> 00:26:09.050
 I wouldn't mind my online sales

700
00:26:09.050 --> 00:26:10.490
 going back to pandemic proportions.

701
00:26:10.890 --> 00:26:11.290
 That would be alright.

702
00:26:11.370 --> 00:26:12.090
 Yeah, that'd be great.

703
00:26:12.230 --> 00:26:14.310
 Yeah, it'd certainly help my business out as well,

704
00:26:14.310 --> 00:26:15.690
 but I'm not going to wish it on anyone.

705
00:26:16.490 --> 00:26:18.510
 But yeah, you know, I think at the moment,

706
00:26:19.170 --> 00:26:21.930
 the tap room has been huge and it keeps growing.

707
00:26:22.230 --> 00:26:24.530
 It's a real sort of attraction to this area

708
00:26:24.530 --> 00:26:28.050
 and not only do we allow,

709
00:26:28.050 --> 00:26:30.150
 it allows us to really engage with the community.

710
00:26:30.490 --> 00:26:32.190
 You know, it brings people to the area

711
00:26:32.190 --> 00:26:34.630
 and gets people to see the wonderful area that we live in.

712
00:26:34.670 --> 00:26:35.630
 You know, it's incredible.

713
00:26:36.030 --> 00:26:38.130
 There's so much walking around here,

714
00:26:38.510 --> 00:26:41.190
 so much nature and there's so much great hospitality

715
00:26:41.190 --> 00:26:42.370
 as well, you know what I mean?

716
00:26:43.430 --> 00:26:46.170
 So, and it's, the area's grown massively.

717
00:26:46.490 --> 00:26:48.010
 There's some houses going up

718
00:26:48.010 --> 00:26:49.990
 left, right and center around here as well.

719
00:26:50.290 --> 00:26:53.510
 As I say, you know, for this period of time,

720
00:26:53.730 --> 00:26:54.890
 when I first got here,

721
00:26:54.910 --> 00:26:56.250
 we lived on the outskirts of Leeds,

722
00:26:56.370 --> 00:26:58.550
 we moved to Southwaite

723
00:26:58.550 --> 00:27:02.030
 and the train from here to Leeds took 25 minutes.

724
00:27:02.110 --> 00:27:03.930
 And so that was quicker than me living

725
00:27:03.930 --> 00:27:06.850
 on the outskirts of Leeds and getting a bus into Leeds.

726
00:27:07.290 --> 00:27:09.030
 Yeah, so it's kind of the rationale

727
00:27:09.030 --> 00:27:12.590
 between moving here and then for about 10 years,

728
00:27:13.110 --> 00:27:14.750
 there's been work on the lines,

729
00:27:15.110 --> 00:27:17.170
 there's been trains off, there's been,

730
00:27:17.170 --> 00:27:17.870
 you know what I mean?

731
00:27:17.910 --> 00:27:19.570
 So I just haven't had that kind of,

732
00:27:19.570 --> 00:27:22.050
 that closeness to Leeds and closeness to Manchester

733
00:27:22.050 --> 00:27:24.070
 that I thought I was gonna get here.

734
00:27:24.070 --> 00:27:24.970
 Yeah, yeah.

735
00:27:25.030 --> 00:27:26.670
 But that's now opening up again.

736
00:27:27.410 --> 00:27:29.670
 They've invested in all sorts of things

737
00:27:29.670 --> 00:27:31.130
 transport-wise around the area.

738
00:27:31.910 --> 00:27:34.550
 They've paved the canal towpath down there

739
00:27:34.550 --> 00:27:37.210
 so people can get here without having to skip

740
00:27:37.210 --> 00:27:40.650
 around puddles and trudge through mud, you know.

741
00:27:41.210 --> 00:27:43.230
 So the access is opening up here as well,

742
00:27:43.350 --> 00:27:43.890
 you know what I mean?

743
00:27:43.890 --> 00:27:47.850
 So, and as I say, I'm obviously tremendously biased,

744
00:27:47.850 --> 00:27:49.210
 but I don't think there's a beer garden

745
00:27:49.210 --> 00:27:50.290
 quite like this in the country.

746
00:27:50.530 --> 00:27:51.730
 So it's a real highlight.

747
00:27:52.110 --> 00:27:53.570
 And yeah, adding then production

748
00:27:53.570 --> 00:27:54.870
 onto the side of that as well,

749
00:27:54.950 --> 00:27:56.530
 and a little bit more food

750
00:27:57.090 --> 00:27:59.270
 should be really, really great place to visit.

751
00:27:59.990 --> 00:28:00.550
 Yeah, definitely.

752
00:28:00.690 --> 00:28:02.430
 It sounds like you're in a really good area

753
00:28:02.430 --> 00:28:03.950
 where it's improving.

754
00:28:04.290 --> 00:28:05.750
 You know, you said houses going up

755
00:28:05.750 --> 00:28:09.270
 and links to get to where you are are improving.

756
00:28:09.870 --> 00:28:13.270
 So yeah, and even when you get your new site in

757
00:28:13.270 --> 00:28:14.770
 and your brewery kit in there,

758
00:28:14.790 --> 00:28:17.570
 it'll be another reason for people to come and visit you.

759
00:28:17.710 --> 00:28:19.310
 Take a nice shiny new kit.

760
00:28:19.690 --> 00:28:19.890
 Yeah.

761
00:28:20.270 --> 00:28:21.950
 And we're looking for more hospitality as well,

762
00:28:22.130 --> 00:28:26.110
 you know, I think a bar, city center somewhere,

763
00:28:26.290 --> 00:28:27.730
 a pub of some description,

764
00:28:28.190 --> 00:28:29.930
 and then that'll be it, stop there.

765
00:28:30.550 --> 00:28:31.170
 Sounds good.

766
00:28:31.610 --> 00:28:32.430
 So is there any, I mean,

767
00:28:32.510 --> 00:28:34.490
 I know you spoke earlier that you've done,

768
00:28:34.490 --> 00:28:36.330
 you know, so many collaborations,

769
00:28:36.470 --> 00:28:37.630
 you know, you're kind of,

770
00:28:37.710 --> 00:28:39.050
 you've swamped in collaborations

771
00:28:39.050 --> 00:28:41.690
 in the earliest stage of Zapato,

772
00:28:41.690 --> 00:28:43.830
 but is there any other collaborations

773
00:28:43.830 --> 00:28:45.510
 that you might be excited to explore

774
00:28:45.510 --> 00:28:48.450
 or even any styles of beer, new styles of beer?

775
00:28:49.450 --> 00:28:51.290
 I've kind of got on the back burner really.

776
00:28:51.390 --> 00:28:54.530
 I mean, everyone that we've collaborated with in the past,

777
00:28:54.970 --> 00:28:57.410
 I kind of owe them one back.

778
00:28:58.030 --> 00:28:59.510
 Yeah, but definitely, yeah.

779
00:28:59.650 --> 00:29:00.770
 That's the whole idea, isn't it?

780
00:29:01.130 --> 00:29:02.750
 One collaboration at their brewery

781
00:29:02.750 --> 00:29:03.390
 and then they come back to you.

782
00:29:03.490 --> 00:29:04.330
 Totally, yeah.

783
00:29:05.150 --> 00:29:07.350
 And that's kind of the thing is that

784
00:29:07.350 --> 00:29:08.410
 everyone was on a promise.

785
00:29:08.410 --> 00:29:12.090
 So I have got maybe about 18 months of collaborations

786
00:29:12.090 --> 00:29:14.090
 that we've done in the past that I owe.

787
00:29:14.570 --> 00:29:16.410
 I owe everyone a return leg.

788
00:29:17.190 --> 00:29:19.690
 Every special is gonna be a collaboration from now on.

789
00:29:19.690 --> 00:29:21.290
 I feel like I've probably got that tied up

790
00:29:21.290 --> 00:29:23.630
 for when we get going really, you know what I mean?

791
00:29:24.530 --> 00:29:27.370
 And then we'll have a look at it again after that.

792
00:29:27.630 --> 00:29:30.270
 But yeah, I sort of, yeah.

793
00:29:30.370 --> 00:29:32.470
 I mean, it would be nice to just sort of get,

794
00:29:32.690 --> 00:29:34.250
 you know, one of the things is we kind of,

795
00:29:34.250 --> 00:29:37.070
 we kind of brew an IPA maybe twice a year,

796
00:29:37.070 --> 00:29:37.670
 you know what I mean?

797
00:29:37.670 --> 00:29:40.590
 So just being a brewing IPA like once a month would be great.

798
00:29:41.630 --> 00:29:44.350
 Because I don't know, my feelings on IPA

799
00:29:44.350 --> 00:29:46.510
 are that we're trying to, you know,

800
00:29:46.630 --> 00:29:49.150
 develop something of our own, you know,

801
00:29:49.150 --> 00:29:52.210
 and trying to develop a kind of a way of doing IPAs

802
00:29:52.210 --> 00:29:55.390
 that's somewhere in between, you know,

803
00:29:55.750 --> 00:29:58.350
 what's popular now and what was popular in the past,

804
00:29:58.450 --> 00:29:58.890
 you know what I mean?

805
00:29:58.890 --> 00:30:00.390
 Just to explore that a little bit more.

806
00:30:01.110 --> 00:30:03.230
 But what question is, what hops would you use?

807
00:30:04.490 --> 00:30:05.270
 Oh, what's available?

808
00:30:05.510 --> 00:30:06.930
 It depends, it really depends.

809
00:30:08.030 --> 00:30:12.790
 You've got so many like sub-styles amongst IPA now.

810
00:30:12.930 --> 00:30:13.270
 There is.

811
00:30:13.270 --> 00:30:14.070
 Would you use British hops?

812
00:30:14.810 --> 00:30:15.170
 Sorry?

813
00:30:15.670 --> 00:30:16.630
 Would you use British hops?

814
00:30:17.430 --> 00:30:18.830
 I use a lot of British hops.

815
00:30:19.530 --> 00:30:20.410
 I've always tried to,

816
00:30:20.410 --> 00:30:22.550
 I've always tried to sort of blend the hops

817
00:30:22.550 --> 00:30:23.430
 from different countries.

818
00:30:23.570 --> 00:30:26.330
 And I think British hops provide, you know,

819
00:30:26.890 --> 00:30:28.410
 some of the best bittering.

820
00:30:29.170 --> 00:30:29.770
 Yeah, for sure.

821
00:30:30.930 --> 00:30:31.470
 A couple of runs.

822
00:30:31.810 --> 00:30:34.610
 We've produced a number of tropical flavors now.

823
00:30:34.610 --> 00:30:37.970
 You know, I was speaking to Charles Faram,

824
00:30:38.070 --> 00:30:41.770
 did a lot of breeding programs to get to where,

825
00:30:41.770 --> 00:30:43.870
 you know, the new world hops are from Australia,

826
00:30:43.990 --> 00:30:45.910
 New Zealand, America.

827
00:30:46.190 --> 00:30:47.550
 And we're getting there, I think.

828
00:30:48.070 --> 00:30:49.070
 It's gonna take a bit of time,

829
00:30:49.070 --> 00:30:50.970
 but we're definitely producing some really good,

830
00:30:51.330 --> 00:30:52.750
 juicy tropical hop aroma flavors.

831
00:30:53.110 --> 00:30:53.350
 Oh yeah, definitely.

832
00:30:53.870 --> 00:30:54.110
 Yeah.

833
00:30:54.350 --> 00:30:56.730
 I just, I kind of, I think at the end of the day,

834
00:30:57.070 --> 00:30:57.890
 it's sort of not one or,

835
00:30:57.990 --> 00:31:00.090
 it's neither one or the other, really.

836
00:31:00.230 --> 00:31:00.590
 Yeah.

837
00:31:01.170 --> 00:31:03.730
 I think, I like using British hops a bit,

838
00:31:03.730 --> 00:31:05.850
 I like using British hops, you know,

839
00:31:06.150 --> 00:31:07.790
 in pale ales and stuff like that.

840
00:31:07.810 --> 00:31:10.990
 But they also work really well with American hops.

841
00:31:11.250 --> 00:31:12.850
 You know, I think at the end of the day with hops,

842
00:31:13.010 --> 00:31:14.310
 you've got a palette of colors, right?

843
00:31:14.350 --> 00:31:15.530
 And you draw them together

844
00:31:15.530 --> 00:31:17.510
 in however way you want to brew the beer.

845
00:31:17.550 --> 00:31:19.070
 You don't have to be one or the other.

846
00:31:19.630 --> 00:31:19.970
 Yeah.

847
00:31:20.250 --> 00:31:20.730
 I do.

848
00:31:20.770 --> 00:31:22.230
 I really enjoy bitterness in beers.

849
00:31:22.350 --> 00:31:24.050
 And I think beers without any bitterness

850
00:31:24.050 --> 00:31:25.070
 can get in a bin.

851
00:31:26.170 --> 00:31:28.230
 But again, it's that quality of bitterness, right?

852
00:31:28.270 --> 00:31:28.710
 You know what I mean?

853
00:31:28.730 --> 00:31:29.110
 Yeah.

854
00:31:29.110 --> 00:31:31.530
 I always think with a lot of my favorite British hops,

855
00:31:31.530 --> 00:31:34.370
 they give a sort of fine quality to the bitterness

856
00:31:35.930 --> 00:31:38.750
 that you maybe don't get quite as well for in other areas.

857
00:31:38.890 --> 00:31:39.310
 You know what I mean?

858
00:31:39.670 --> 00:31:41.730
 The trend over the last, you know,

859
00:31:41.890 --> 00:31:44.070
 10 years has really just been to set bitterness,

860
00:31:44.390 --> 00:31:47.130
 you know, just use, you know, a bittering agent

861
00:31:47.130 --> 00:31:49.790
 or a hop oil or a extract or something like that

862
00:31:49.790 --> 00:31:51.710
 and just go, right, that's bitterness, done.

863
00:31:52.610 --> 00:31:53.770
 But I've always been interested

864
00:31:53.770 --> 00:31:55.750
 in combining hops for bitterness, you know,

865
00:31:56.530 --> 00:31:57.930
 using different, you know, again,

866
00:31:58.010 --> 00:32:00.810
 that sort of idea of throwing bitterness in at the start

867
00:32:00.810 --> 00:32:02.630
 and aroma in at the end and that's it.

868
00:32:02.770 --> 00:32:04.410
 We don't put anything else in the middle of the brew.

869
00:32:04.770 --> 00:32:06.150
 Like I just, I don't like that.

870
00:32:06.230 --> 00:32:06.650
 You know what I mean?

871
00:32:06.990 --> 00:32:09.410
 I think you got to use all of the different variables

872
00:32:09.410 --> 00:32:11.490
 you can and if that's timing of hops,

873
00:32:11.570 --> 00:32:13.430
 if that's combining hops in bitterness,

874
00:32:13.610 --> 00:32:15.370
 if that's, you know, whatever else, you know,

875
00:32:15.510 --> 00:32:17.550
 science might say that it doesn't have an effect,

876
00:32:17.550 --> 00:32:18.970
 but you know, I disagree.

877
00:32:20.330 --> 00:32:21.590
 History tells a different story.

878
00:32:22.030 --> 00:32:24.330
 Well, you know, and I think that's, you know,

879
00:32:24.390 --> 00:32:25.470
 at the end of the day, beers,

880
00:32:27.430 --> 00:32:31.110
 beer's a drink with probably the most amount of variables

881
00:32:31.110 --> 00:32:34.010
 of any other, of anything that you can do, right?

882
00:32:34.090 --> 00:32:34.430
 You know what I mean?

883
00:32:34.490 --> 00:32:34.850
 Yeah.

884
00:32:35.430 --> 00:32:36.410
 It is crazy.

885
00:32:37.010 --> 00:32:39.550
 It is, yeah, exactly and the combinations are infinite.

886
00:32:39.670 --> 00:32:42.770
 So, you know, it makes sense to mess about with it,

887
00:32:42.770 --> 00:32:43.270
 you know what I mean?

888
00:32:43.290 --> 00:32:44.770
 And to play with it a little bit

889
00:32:44.770 --> 00:32:48.150
 and to develop different techniques and, you know,

890
00:32:48.230 --> 00:32:50.050
 use it to sort of build up a picture

891
00:32:50.050 --> 00:32:51.470
 rather than just to go, okay, well,

892
00:32:51.530 --> 00:32:53.590
 this is the received wisdom at this point in time.

893
00:32:53.610 --> 00:32:55.010
 We're just going to do it like this.

894
00:32:55.010 --> 00:32:57.030
 And produce, you know,

895
00:32:57.190 --> 00:32:58.630
 saleable beer or whatever, you know what I mean?

896
00:32:59.850 --> 00:33:01.750
 I think complexity is important.

897
00:33:02.090 --> 00:33:05.190
 Yeah, I think that's what gets you, you know what I mean?

898
00:33:05.210 --> 00:33:07.090
 And to find complexity in simple beers,

899
00:33:07.110 --> 00:33:08.530
 I think is really, really important.

900
00:33:08.910 --> 00:33:09.310
 Yeah.

901
00:33:09.650 --> 00:33:12.130
 And the way you can do that is by bringing things in

902
00:33:12.130 --> 00:33:13.430
 in different ways, you know what I mean?

903
00:33:14.070 --> 00:33:15.930
 Yeah, I agree there, definitely.

904
00:33:16.990 --> 00:33:18.610
 Finally, for everyone listening,

905
00:33:19.290 --> 00:33:21.810
 what do you want our listeners to understand

906
00:33:21.810 --> 00:33:24.250
 about what kind of brewery Zapato is, you know,

907
00:33:24.250 --> 00:33:27.710
 what makes you unique in the independent beer market?

908
00:33:28.430 --> 00:33:30.170
 Oh gosh, I think, you know,

909
00:33:30.370 --> 00:33:32.830
 I think one of the things is just the way of experience

910
00:33:32.830 --> 00:33:34.250
 we're bringing to this, you know what I mean?

911
00:33:34.510 --> 00:33:36.090
 I think, you know, we've, you know,

912
00:33:36.110 --> 00:33:37.270
 occasionally on a bad day,

913
00:33:37.290 --> 00:33:38.690
 you could say we're a little bit jaded

914
00:33:38.690 --> 00:33:41.270
 by the last 20 years of drinking,

915
00:33:41.350 --> 00:33:44.270
 but, you know, there's so much more to beer

916
00:33:44.270 --> 00:33:47.210
 than what's currently out there, you know what I mean?

917
00:33:48.790 --> 00:33:53.590
 And I think that kind of experience

918
00:33:53.990 --> 00:33:56.930
 allows you to deliver the knowledge, you know what I mean,

919
00:33:57.330 --> 00:34:00.430
 and the kind of, to relate it to the customer

920
00:34:00.430 --> 00:34:01.470
 a lot better, you know what I mean?

921
00:34:02.110 --> 00:34:05.230
 So I think experience is one thing.

922
00:34:05.350 --> 00:34:07.030
 I think at the end of the day, like,

923
00:34:07.130 --> 00:34:10.929
 I don't know, balance and complexity,

924
00:34:11.150 --> 00:34:11.830
 you know what I mean?

925
00:34:12.310 --> 00:34:13.489
 And the two things, you know,

926
00:34:14.090 --> 00:34:16.449
 maybe don't rub together quite as well

927
00:34:16.449 --> 00:34:18.750
 as they ought to do, but, you know,

928
00:34:18.830 --> 00:34:20.230
 even if you're creating something

929
00:34:20.230 --> 00:34:22.370
 that's really, really, really strong

930
00:34:22.370 --> 00:34:23.909
 and really, really flavored,

931
00:34:23.989 --> 00:34:24.909
 like, does it balance?

932
00:34:25.110 --> 00:34:25.550
 You know what I mean?

933
00:34:25.690 --> 00:34:26.570
 Is the beer balanced?

934
00:34:27.150 --> 00:34:27.989
 I think balance is key.

935
00:34:28.750 --> 00:34:30.630
 Yeah, honestly, like, I was listening

936
00:34:30.630 --> 00:34:32.210
 to a podcast the other day,

937
00:34:33.590 --> 00:34:36.469
 and, you know, it's this fella who's creating

938
00:34:36.469 --> 00:34:37.810
 strong beers and barrel-aged beers

939
00:34:37.810 --> 00:34:38.670
 and all that sort of stuff,

940
00:34:38.690 --> 00:34:40.230
 but he's still looking to achieve balance,

941
00:34:40.270 --> 00:34:40.830
 you know what I mean?

942
00:34:40.969 --> 00:34:42.110
 And still looking, you know,

943
00:34:42.110 --> 00:34:43.810
 you can achieve balance in all sorts of things,

944
00:34:43.810 --> 00:34:46.690
 and I think that a lot of the more gimmicky beers

945
00:34:46.690 --> 00:34:48.610
 in the market at the moment issue that,

946
00:34:48.610 --> 00:34:49.230
 you know what I mean,

947
00:34:49.650 --> 00:34:51.670
 to the chance of a sort of a cheap sale, right?

948
00:34:51.670 --> 00:34:53.050
 It looks like a snickers, wicked.

949
00:34:53.350 --> 00:34:54.730
 Oh yeah, the can looks like a snickers, wicked.

950
00:34:54.770 --> 00:34:57.050
 Taste like a snickers, wicked, great, whatever.

951
00:34:57.370 --> 00:34:57.790
 You know what I mean?

952
00:34:57.990 --> 00:34:58.750
 Like, each to their own,

953
00:34:58.810 --> 00:34:59.730
 but is that beer balanced,

954
00:34:59.770 --> 00:35:00.250
 you know what I mean?

955
00:35:00.250 --> 00:35:01.370
 And when I taste those beers,

956
00:35:01.550 --> 00:35:03.870
 you know, they're overwhelmingly sweet.

957
00:35:04.330 --> 00:35:04.870
 They are, yeah.

958
00:35:05.290 --> 00:35:06.640
 And then it's like-

959
00:35:07.250 --> 00:35:10.010
 Tasty stouts can be either too sweet

960
00:35:10.010 --> 00:35:11.990
 or you can't really pick up the flavor

961
00:35:11.990 --> 00:35:12.650
 that's in there.

962
00:35:13.370 --> 00:35:14.630
 It's either one or the other.

963
00:35:14.730 --> 00:35:16.870
 To find someone that's doing it really balanced,

964
00:35:16.930 --> 00:35:18.110
 like you say, is key.

965
00:35:18.430 --> 00:35:20.230
 Yes, I can taste that flavor,

966
00:35:20.650 --> 00:35:22.950
 but I don't want it to be too sweet.

967
00:35:23.550 --> 00:35:25.850
 Maybe that's adding too much lactose in it.

968
00:35:25.970 --> 00:35:27.770
 I don't know, but yeah.

969
00:35:27.770 --> 00:35:28.510
 Totally, yeah.

970
00:35:29.130 --> 00:35:31.590
 And for me, kind of, you know,

971
00:35:31.890 --> 00:35:36.430
 the balance in bittersweet herbal notes, depth,

972
00:35:37.230 --> 00:35:40.350
 I think then leads to something more rewarding.

973
00:35:41.870 --> 00:35:42.770
 And then there's, you know,

974
00:35:42.930 --> 00:35:45.270
 depth and complexity I think is really important.

975
00:35:45.290 --> 00:35:47.250
 And even in a really simple beer,

976
00:35:47.610 --> 00:35:49.330
 you know, is there some depth in it?

977
00:35:49.330 --> 00:35:50.790
 Is the flavor, you know,

978
00:35:51.050 --> 00:35:52.510
 is the finish lasting a while?

979
00:35:52.650 --> 00:35:53.050
 You know what I mean?

980
00:35:53.090 --> 00:35:55.510
 Am I getting more than just chucking it back?

981
00:35:55.850 --> 00:35:57.270
 And, you know, so I could point

982
00:35:57.270 --> 00:35:58.690
 to some really popular beers

983
00:35:58.690 --> 00:36:02.810
 that are just lacking in any kind of depth or balance.

984
00:36:02.970 --> 00:36:04.270
 You know, overly sweet,

985
00:36:05.070 --> 00:36:06.290
 worty, moldy nonsense.

986
00:36:06.490 --> 00:36:06.950
 You know what I mean?

987
00:36:07.450 --> 00:36:09.410
 Yeah, the best beers in the world always have depth,

988
00:36:09.470 --> 00:36:11.030
 always have balance, always have complexity,

989
00:36:11.070 --> 00:36:12.630
 but it's still approachable, you know?

990
00:36:12.690 --> 00:36:14.070
 So that's what we're trying to do.

991
00:36:14.330 --> 00:36:16.410
 Always trying to deliver that kind of

992
00:36:16.410 --> 00:36:17.530
 balance, depth, complexity.

993
00:36:18.110 --> 00:36:18.510
 Awesome.

994
00:36:19.070 --> 00:36:20.730
 Without scaring people off

995
00:36:20.730 --> 00:36:22.750
 with words like balance, depth, and complexity

996
00:36:22.750 --> 00:36:23.870
 that they don't understand.

997
00:36:24.610 --> 00:36:24.690
 Yeah.

998
00:36:25.370 --> 00:36:29.150
 So one beer that you have out at the moment,

999
00:36:29.930 --> 00:36:33.990
 what would you say sums up what Zapata is?

1000
00:36:34.370 --> 00:36:36.410
 I mean, I love all of them equally, right?

1001
00:36:36.850 --> 00:36:37.290
 Of course.

1002
00:36:38.030 --> 00:36:39.550
 Every brewery owner would say that.

1003
00:36:39.630 --> 00:36:41.950
 Yeah, the beer that we've brewed

1004
00:36:41.950 --> 00:36:43.990
 the most of is probably Zapata Pale.

1005
00:36:44.550 --> 00:36:45.870
 I had that, it's very, very nice.

1006
00:36:45.870 --> 00:36:46.470
 Very nice.

1007
00:36:46.470 --> 00:36:49.730
 5.5%, you know, you maybe fit it

1008
00:36:49.730 --> 00:36:51.990
 into the sort of extra special bitter category,

1009
00:36:52.390 --> 00:36:53.390
 strong pale ale.

1010
00:36:53.930 --> 00:36:57.030
 Some people would call 5.5% an IPA,

1011
00:36:57.070 --> 00:36:58.030
 and it's not.

1012
00:36:59.570 --> 00:37:01.250
 IPA starts at six.

1013
00:37:02.590 --> 00:37:04.310
 But essentially what you've got there

1014
00:37:04.310 --> 00:37:06.750
 is you've got something that is gonna deliver,

1015
00:37:06.890 --> 00:37:09.750
 you know, the original brew is probably based

1016
00:37:09.750 --> 00:37:11.530
 somewhere around Sierra Nevada pale ale.

1017
00:37:11.730 --> 00:37:13.610
 Little bit of influence from things like

1018
00:37:13.610 --> 00:37:15.290
 Landlord and stuff like that, you know what I mean?

1019
00:37:15.290 --> 00:37:17.930
 Where you've got kind of something satisfying,

1020
00:37:18.310 --> 00:37:20.290
 you know, 5.5% category.

1021
00:37:20.770 --> 00:37:22.170
 It's doing all right at the moment,

1022
00:37:22.250 --> 00:37:22.770
 you know what I mean?

1023
00:37:23.090 --> 00:37:25.790
 And, you know, you're delivering malt flavor,

1024
00:37:26.150 --> 00:37:27.490
 you're delivering hop flavor.

1025
00:37:27.630 --> 00:37:28.890
 It is a citra pale ale.

1026
00:37:29.230 --> 00:37:30.810
 So you citra all the way through,

1027
00:37:30.950 --> 00:37:31.930
 you citra to bitter,

1028
00:37:32.030 --> 00:37:35.350
 which usually makes breweries upset.

1029
00:37:35.790 --> 00:37:37.770
 But it delivers the bitterness that I want, right?

1030
00:37:37.790 --> 00:37:38.310
 You know what I mean?

1031
00:37:38.390 --> 00:37:40.730
 And I think that bitterness then...

1032
00:37:40.730 --> 00:37:42.490
 Well, it works for Oaken, so.

1033
00:37:42.810 --> 00:37:43.390
 Well, exactly.

1034
00:37:45.430 --> 00:37:47.970
 It works for Oaken, it works for me.

1035
00:37:48.830 --> 00:37:50.890
 But yeah, that kind of citra earlier on,

1036
00:37:50.990 --> 00:37:53.350
 followed by citra later on in the brew as well.

1037
00:37:53.550 --> 00:37:56.610
 And citra in the dry hop always sort of carries the beer.

1038
00:37:57.190 --> 00:38:00.490
 And then we change the finishing hop on every batch.

1039
00:38:01.370 --> 00:38:03.090
 So then I just cycle through hops.

1040
00:38:04.050 --> 00:38:05.850
 And that, I suppose, you know,

1041
00:38:06.030 --> 00:38:08.710
 partially influenced by people like Kernel, I suppose.

1042
00:38:09.190 --> 00:38:11.730
 Just a bit of an exploration for me personally

1043
00:38:11.730 --> 00:38:13.050
 about what that hop does,

1044
00:38:13.390 --> 00:38:14.650
 how it works with the citra,

1045
00:38:14.650 --> 00:38:15.750
 how it works in a beer.

1046
00:38:16.650 --> 00:38:20.730
 And it produces kind of markedly different beers every time.

1047
00:38:20.790 --> 00:38:22.330
 So there's a part of pale changes,

1048
00:38:22.330 --> 00:38:25.150
 but also then you've still got this touchstone

1049
00:38:25.150 --> 00:38:26.370
 of the main beer.

1050
00:38:27.010 --> 00:38:29.330
 So despite the fact that maybe the finish changes,

1051
00:38:29.530 --> 00:38:31.990
 the top notes change, the flavors change,

1052
00:38:32.330 --> 00:38:34.350
 like you get past that a little bit

1053
00:38:34.350 --> 00:38:37.210
 and you've always got this solid 5.5% beer

1054
00:38:37.210 --> 00:38:39.210
 that is sort of bittersweet.

1055
00:38:39.370 --> 00:38:41.250
 And really always delivers, you know, whenever.

1056
00:38:41.870 --> 00:38:43.390
 Again, I'm utterly biased

1057
00:38:43.390 --> 00:38:45.870
 and I can't believe how biased I am these days

1058
00:38:45.870 --> 00:38:46.890
 when I taste my own beers.

1059
00:38:47.070 --> 00:38:47.390
 You know what I mean?

1060
00:38:47.670 --> 00:38:48.750
 Oh, great, that's brilliant.

1061
00:38:48.990 --> 00:38:49.970
 Love it.

1062
00:38:50.410 --> 00:38:52.970
 You know, but you know, you always come back to it.

1063
00:38:52.970 --> 00:38:54.370
 Whenever I get a fresh can in

1064
00:38:54.370 --> 00:38:55.750
 and whenever we've got a new batch,

1065
00:38:55.890 --> 00:38:58.550
 then I tend to end up drinking five or six

1066
00:38:58.550 --> 00:39:00.530
 in a session or whatever, you know what I mean?

1067
00:39:00.550 --> 00:39:04.270
 So I always come back to it and it always delivers,

1068
00:39:04.270 --> 00:39:07.210
 you know, but it delivers consistency,

1069
00:39:08.490 --> 00:39:09.290
 delivers familiarity,

1070
00:39:09.830 --> 00:39:12.470
 but then it also has a bit of a twist every time.

1071
00:39:12.470 --> 00:39:15.030
 So you've got that variety as part of it as well.

1072
00:39:15.850 --> 00:39:18.030
 And so anyone sort of stocking that, you know,

1073
00:39:18.690 --> 00:39:20.970
 regularly is always gonna get, you know,

1074
00:39:21.070 --> 00:39:23.770
 it's a pat of pearl, pretty much the same every time,

1075
00:39:23.770 --> 00:39:26.030
 but you've got a little bit of variety in there as well.

1076
00:39:27.010 --> 00:39:28.450
 And I think that's, I don't know,

1077
00:39:28.470 --> 00:39:31.510
 it kind of sums up where everything is at the moment.

1078
00:39:31.650 --> 00:39:32.050
 You know what I mean?

1079
00:39:32.070 --> 00:39:33.470
 You want a little bit of invention,

1080
00:39:34.050 --> 00:39:34.930
 a little bit of difference,

1081
00:39:34.990 --> 00:39:37.030
 but really you want to be able to, you know,

1082
00:39:37.030 --> 00:39:38.450
 you want that touchstone,

1083
00:39:39.190 --> 00:39:41.270
 you want that element of familiarity.

1084
00:39:41.810 --> 00:39:43.470
 And I think it always does that.

1085
00:39:43.550 --> 00:39:43.970
 You know what I mean?

1086
00:39:44.010 --> 00:39:46.310
 And especially cause it's very Citra based as well.

1087
00:39:46.350 --> 00:39:48.150
 You've got that familiar Citric aspect,

1088
00:39:48.250 --> 00:39:49.990
 you've got that lychee thing,

1089
00:39:50.030 --> 00:39:52.430
 which I think is always underrated in Citra,

1090
00:39:52.570 --> 00:39:56.650
 that kind of jellyy kind of sort of sweetness

1091
00:39:56.650 --> 00:39:59.650
 that you get from lychee that is-

1092
00:39:59.650 --> 00:40:03.010
 It's amazing how popular Citra hop is considering.

1093
00:40:03.070 --> 00:40:04.210
 It's not been around that long.

1094
00:40:04.510 --> 00:40:05.550
 Yeah. Oh, it's incredible.

1095
00:40:05.650 --> 00:40:08.250
 And it feels like it's been around since day one,

1096
00:40:08.270 --> 00:40:09.210
 it's so popular.

1097
00:40:09.210 --> 00:40:13.230
 Yeah, I suppose it has really, you know what I mean?

1098
00:40:13.590 --> 00:40:15.890
 Like when we first started buying beers

1099
00:40:15.890 --> 00:40:18.250
 with American Hops through Roosters,

1100
00:40:18.670 --> 00:40:19.970
 you know, they were one of the first breweries,

1101
00:40:20.090 --> 00:40:21.650
 them and Summer Lightning.

1102
00:40:21.970 --> 00:40:23.510
 You know, one of the first, you know,

1103
00:40:23.650 --> 00:40:24.830
 Marble across the way,

1104
00:40:25.090 --> 00:40:27.550
 one of the first breweries to sort of really

1105
00:40:27.550 --> 00:40:29.630
 start leaning into American Hops.

1106
00:40:29.950 --> 00:40:32.270
 And it was all Amarillo, Cascades,

1107
00:40:32.730 --> 00:40:33.590
 all that sort of stuff.

1108
00:40:33.690 --> 00:40:36.870
 And then Citra kind of crept in and then suddenly

1109
00:40:36.870 --> 00:40:39.930
 you're like, oh, wow, this is the hop

1110
00:40:40.630 --> 00:40:42.670
 that delivers that flavor, right?

1111
00:40:42.710 --> 00:40:45.110
 That delivers that craft beer flavor.

1112
00:40:45.810 --> 00:40:48.830
 And it still works like a treat, you know,

1113
00:40:48.950 --> 00:40:51.490
 absolutely reliable year in, year out,

1114
00:40:51.590 --> 00:40:53.550
 you know, the profile's pretty similar.

1115
00:40:54.170 --> 00:40:56.310
 Obviously if you're, I don't know,

1116
00:40:56.350 --> 00:40:58.530
 if you're a hill farmstead and you're buying Citra

1117
00:40:58.530 --> 00:41:01.390
 from specific lots on specific farms or whatever,

1118
00:41:01.450 --> 00:41:03.030
 and then being terroir based,

1119
00:41:03.710 --> 00:41:05.670
 then you can probably point to a lot of differences

1120
00:41:05.670 --> 00:41:07.510
 in Citra, but essentially, you know,

1121
00:41:07.530 --> 00:41:09.270
 it's reliable year after year, you know,

1122
00:41:09.270 --> 00:41:11.270
 and it delivers that flavor and that balance.

1123
00:41:12.110 --> 00:41:12.930
 So yeah, Zapata Pell.

1124
00:41:13.410 --> 00:41:13.770
 That's the one.

1125
00:41:14.210 --> 00:41:15.530
 Represented the most, yeah.

1126
00:41:16.030 --> 00:41:18.910
 I've encouraged everyone to try Zapata Pell.

1127
00:41:19.170 --> 00:41:21.210
 It's a beautiful beer, very nicely balanced,

1128
00:41:21.350 --> 00:41:21.990
 easy drinking.

1129
00:41:22.610 --> 00:41:23.510
 What could you ask for?

1130
00:41:23.650 --> 00:41:24.430
 It's an amazing beer.

1131
00:41:24.650 --> 00:41:24.790
 Exactly.

1132
00:41:25.270 --> 00:41:28.110
 On that note, thanks for joining the show

1133
00:41:28.110 --> 00:41:29.490
 and it's been amazing chatting to you

1134
00:41:29.490 --> 00:41:30.610
 and learning more about Zapato

1135
00:41:31.470 --> 00:41:33.290
 and really excited about, you know,

1136
00:41:33.330 --> 00:41:35.010
 everything that you've got going on in the future.

1137
00:41:35.010 --> 00:41:35.490
 Thanks a lot.

1138
00:41:35.830 --> 00:41:37.090
 New kit and yeah,

1139
00:41:37.090 --> 00:41:38.930
 I really hope it really kicks off and does well

1140
00:41:38.930 --> 00:41:42.010
 and everyone starts pouring into this hat room

1141
00:41:42.010 --> 00:41:43.410
 and to have a look at the new kit

1142
00:41:43.410 --> 00:41:44.690
 and taste your beers that you've got on.

1143
00:41:45.350 --> 00:41:47.050
 And definitely, definitely, definitely want to try

1144
00:41:47.050 --> 00:41:49.670
 one of them, one of the casts that you do as well.

1145
00:41:49.750 --> 00:41:50.530
 Definitely, a hundred percent.

1146
00:41:50.670 --> 00:41:50.950
 Great man.

1147
00:41:51.250 --> 00:41:52.610
 Yeah, it's been lovely chatting.

1148
00:41:53.630 --> 00:41:54.870
 Yeah, and to everyone listening,

1149
00:41:55.010 --> 00:41:57.530
 we'll see you back in a couple of weeks

1150
00:41:57.530 --> 00:41:58.450
 for our next guest.

1151
00:41:58.690 --> 00:41:59.270
 Who could it be?

1152
00:41:59.390 --> 00:42:00.010
 I don't know.

1153
00:42:00.350 --> 00:42:01.010
 We'll find out.

1154
00:42:01.090 --> 00:42:01.930
 Once again, cheers Matt.

1155
00:42:02.010 --> 00:42:03.010
 Thanks for being on the show.

1156
00:42:03.110 --> 00:42:03.570
 Catch you later.

1157
00:42:03.570 --> 00:42:04.590
 Thanks very much, man.

1158
00:42:04.770 --> 00:42:05.170
 Take it easy.

1159
00:42:05.930 --> 00:42:06.150
 You too.

1160
00:42:06.290 --> 00:42:06.490
 Cheers.