The Rise of Indie Beer with Neil Walker

Martin (00:00)
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Beer Rep chats with and today I am delighted to be joined again by Neil Walker from the Society of Independent Brewers and Associates and head campaigner for the Indie Beer Campaign. Neil, thanks for joining us again. Part deux.

Neil Walker (00:15)
No,

thanks for having me back. must not have messed it up too bad the first time. So yeah, you've invited me back for a second time. So appreciate it.

Martin (00:21)
Yeah, it's brilliant to have you back. been probably exactly a year, I think, since we last spoke. yeah, it's a whole year. It's crazy how quick it's gone. It's flown by.

Neil Walker (00:27)
Why is it really?

Martin (00:31)
yeah, so last last time we spoke, the Indie beer campaign kind of just launched not not long launched over a year ago. How would you sum up in the in the last year? What's changed? What surprised you? What's been the biggest win that you've you can be really proud of since starting?

Neil Walker (00:49)
Yeah, mean, a lot's happened on Indie Beer. I think the response from breweries has been above and beyond what we were expecting. now at around 700 breweries actively enrolled in support of the campaign.

Martin (01:03)
amazing.

Neil Walker (01:03)
Yeah, and I mean, it's a long slog. even, you know, got 700 that are kind of actively involved, enrolled, you know, have said, we support this campaign, want to get behind it. We reckon about 50 % is hard to gauge sometimes, but we've kind of done some survey and we reckon about 50 % of them have physically got the logo on their kind of cans and bottles as well. So many of them are using kind of different means of promoting. You know, if you're a bigger...

Martin (01:22)
That's great.

Neil Walker (01:26)
independent brewer that's selling into supermarkets and things like that, your cans and labels and things like that, could be a year ahead that,  those designs are going through. So we're still trying to push that through as to why people need to get it on the bottles and cans. But yeah, there's been loads of support. we've got them using it in taprooms, you've got of pump club crowners, all that type of stuff. We've sent out kind of new kind of rubber bar runners and things like that. So everyone that's a supporter gets those and can put them in the taproom. So we're trying to make it as easy as possible for kind of breweries to get involved.

That's been really, good. We've also got over 100 venues now that have got in touch and are actively promoting and supporting the campaign. And actually over 500 consumers as well, which is actually, we've not done a big push on consumer sign-ups necessarily, but we've had...

Martin (02:14)
Yeah.

Neil Walker (02:16)
500 have kind of signed up in support and they're now getting involved on social media and we're also kind of like doing competitions and things like that with them so kind of featured brewers of the month. But yeah it's been fantastic and the first year or so is always going to be about getting sign-ups, getting supports, getting people using it and that's gone quicker than I think we could have expected really.

Martin (02:26)
That's good.

Yeah.

That's good. It sounds like it's really pushing on. yeah, since we last spoke, I've seen it personally that it's grown. And obviously, you you're getting around ⁓ a lot of, we say with a bar runners, I'm seeing quite a lot of them around now and a lot of the logos on cans as well, which is great.

Neil Walker (02:41)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's, it's hard because, you know, I'm probably in the echo chamber a little bit. So I'm going to be speaking to, you know, brewers that are more likely to be engaged with this type of thing. But actually, I think it has cut through to the mainstream quite a bit. I mean, we talked about some of the sort of stats around consumer awareness and things last time around, I think. But actually, we've also been tracking consumer awareness of those global.

brands. So when we launched the campaign, we did some surveying around which brands they thought were independent and people were far more likely to think that Beavertown were independent than some genuinely independent breweries. We're now seeing that shift. So we're now actually seeing Beavertown drop down and there's independent brands that more likely to be chosen and Camden even more. So Camden Hells has dropped way, way down, I think to round number six or something like that. Six most likely that people would select. So

I think the campaigns have it having cut through and you know that surveying we haven't released all of that yet. I kind of use it internally more. I'm happy to, you know, summarise it a little bit here. We're actually invited by you gov. So it's, you know, really a broad church of consumers. These are not people in the beer bubble. These are average person on the street. So it's having to prove to them then, you know, that's a real win. And it's another reason why we've we've really focused on

Martin (04:06)
Yeah.

Neil Walker (04:15)
retail as well. we've launched a partnership with with Waitrose. They've now got an indie beer section on the website. So you go to the website, all the indie beers are in one section. You know, can't have global beers or global owned craft beers in that section. That change of language is hugely important. You know, rather than having a craft beer section, you've got an indie beer section. We're supporting that within in-store activation as well as we're putting a bit of money into actually getting some stuff into the Waitrose stores to kind of signpost it and things like that.

Martin (04:34)
Yeah.

Neil Walker (04:44)
But that's great, but actually I think the most, the thing I'm most proud of with that partnership is it's actually got some sales for members and for people that support the campaign. So Waitrose have got some new listings with independent breweries that they've found via the Indie Beer website. So they've gone on there, found some really great breweries and they've now started stocking those in Waitrose. So people are actually getting some sales off the back of it. So for me, that gives it some teeth as a campaign really, it some reasons to get.

Martin (05:09)
Yeah,

yeah, that's great. mean, when I saw the launch of, you you guys getting into to Waitrose and having your own section, I just thought that was just a huge shift from separating independent breweries from the ones that pretend to be and.

Neil Walker (05:24)
Yeah, I mean, it gives us

control. That's the big thing.

Martin (05:28)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that's what you want. And hopefully we get, you know, you guys are working with other supermarkets to do exactly the same thing. And hopefully we'll see, more of that rolled out to other supermarkets that are selling independent breweries and have their own section. And that'd be just be great. You know, it would start to make consumers think, ⁓ why is this section different to this section? And then they'll, you know, look, look you guys up and figure out what's the whole indie beer campaign all about. And then they'll notice and see, hopefully.

Neil Walker (05:41)
Yeah.

we definitely are having those conversations. We're pretty far down the line with with Marks and Spencer's, but also with the big retailers, big supermarket retailers, not just those kind of more premium supermarket retailers like M&S and Waitrose We want them all to be involved. The difficulty is genuinely that the global brewers have such a stranglehold on those markets that actually trying to get punched through and trying to get a voice for Indie beer.

in those supermarkets is really, really difficult because you've got people with much deeper pockets than us. What's been great with Waitrose is they've been really, really supportive of the campaign. actually, a lot of what they've done has not been financial. It's not been that we've not had to put money in to get that Indie Beer section created on the website. That's something they felt was right. It was something that they felt.

Martin (06:29)
Yeah, of course.

Neil Walker (06:44)
aligned with what they're trying to do in their beer range. They're trying to support more local breweries. They're trying to get people to have different beers in one Waitrose you know, one part of the country to a different part of the country. it aligned with that. So I think it's as much about trying to get the retailers to understand why this is important as it is to kind of say, well, here's a load of money and here's why you should do it, because we're never going to have as deep pockets as those global brewers. yeah, it's about, yeah, getting them to understand why they should do it really.

Martin (07:12)
Yeah, and hope that obviously more supermarkets are on the same wavelength as Waitrose and want to do it because they feel it's the right thing to do. So yeah, I mean, it's a great starting point. Obviously, now you've got Waitrose to take that forward to other supermarkets because, you know, if Waitrose are doing it, you're missing out. know, don't miss out on something that's moving at a really good, fast pace. Yeah.

Neil Walker (07:19)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Yeah, and genuinely, like for personal

point of view, I've got a Waitrose near me and you go in there now and the beer range now is so much better. You know, it's really, really good. So I mean, you know, I think they're going to get good sales out of it and their customers are going to enjoy it as well, which is, you know, ultimately what we want.

Martin (07:46)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. So have you, have you seen, moving from the supermarkets, have you seen like a measurable shift in, in how pubs or retailers are engaging with the Indie Beer branding since we talked, or is it still pretty much similar?

Neil Walker (08:03)
Yeah

Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's worth mentioning because obviously I talked there about retail and you know, that's that's an important part because I think for a lot of people, the way they get into, you know, good beer, the way they discover craft beer or as we would call it, indie beer from small independent breweries is through supermarkets. So that's quite a lot of people's, you know, first experience with trying lots of different beers. But

The vast majority of independent beer is sold via pubs. We've only got data for SIBA members, but looking at SIBA members, about 70 % is sold via pubs. So pubs are really, really important. And actually we found since launching the campaign, we've had a lot more active engagement from pubs. So from lots of independent pubs wanting to support the campaign, as I say, there's...

Over 100 venues that have now signed up in support of the campaign are actively enrolled. We're sending them out posters, you know, as much as we can do on our budgets. We're trying to do for free for those venues. But we're also working with some of the pub companies as well. So we through SIBA do some stuff with selling independent beer into pub companies. So trying to get some guest beer into pubs. And actually during Indie Beer Week, we're going to be working with 100 of those kind of top pubs, so the pubs that sell the most independent beer.

And again, trying to send them out some point of sale material, getting some bar runners, all that type of stuff. Because we just we know that pubs are the most important route to market for independent beer. It's just difficult and it's expensive. There's a lot of pubs. We've only got limited budgets. So it's how we can get pubs engaged without it costing us a fortune. Because, you know, hate to kind of keep banging the same drum, but we do not have the as deep a pockets as Madri and, you know.

Martin (09:32)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Neil Walker (09:45)
and the global brewers. anyway in which we can get involved. And a big thing actually, I think has been social media. So I think is a relatively grassroots campaign. Engaging with pubs on social media, engaging with venues, doing featured venues and featured bottle shops and all that type of stuff on our social media. That's been huge. Some of the engagement we've been getting through that has been way higher than anything we've done with breweries even. Because I think when you engage with a really good local pub

It's quite often the only good pub of that type in that area. So it's got a really, really active audience of people. It's got people who really, really love that venue. So when we engage with it, actually, we see loads and loads of reach on that. So yeah, we're trying to do as much of that as possible just to get the message out there.

Martin (10:30)
Yeah, the hashtag Indie beer is trending. If hashtag, if hashtags are even working these days. mean, I'm getting so many mixed things from people saying, hashtags are dead hashtags, blah, blah, blah. But that's the way to use the hashtag Indie beer all the time.

Neil Walker (10:33)
Yeah, well, hopefully, yeah.

B

Yeah, kind of just,

yeah, just edge by bets and put it on there and hopefully it's going to work a bit. I think, I think the way that people engage with the social media platforms has changed massively as well. As you say, mean, you know, in Instagram now it's all about the reels, but more so the stories as well. So that's what we're trying to do.

Martin (10:55)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, people want to hear them sort

of stories from from independent breweries. And basically, this is what my podcast is all about. speaking to independent breweries and founders and brewers and of all sorts and getting their story out because I think that's the most important thing an independent brewery has in their arsenal is their story, because it's always going to be different to everyone else's.

Neil Walker (11:21)
Yeah,

no, 100%. And yeah, we're trying to be where the beer consumers are and getting on TikTok and YouTube Shorts and all that type of stuff. yeah, we're trying, but there's a lot of places to be, I suppose.

Martin (11:32)
Obviously, you spoke to a lot of your members, a lot of conversations with them. Has the sentiment improved around access to market and profitability or those still pressures that are really dominant for independent breweries at the moment?

Neil Walker (11:44)
Honestly, yeah, they are. They are still the kind of number one pressure. Those two pressures are kind of number one, number two, however you want look at it. It's still really difficult for small breweries. We've still not heard the outcome of the government's review into access to market. So they promised to kind of review access to market. did a consultation, which obviously lots of trade associations put into including SIBA, which is one of the organisations behind Indie Beer.

We put into that, but we're yet to hear the results of that, that the minister has not announced what they're gonna do. So it's still really tough. while the market is being, again, dominated by those global brewers who are controlling taps, controlling what beers sold in pubs, it's gonna be tough for small breweries. I I think I talked last time around the kind of market share for independent beer, which is about 7%. So if you imagine you've got these, 1500.

Martin (12:36)
Yeah.

Neil Walker (12:39)
breweries in the UK, all fighting for 7 % of the market share. And then you've got those remaining, you know, three, four, whatever global brewers, with the rest of it. So it just shows you how far we've got to go. You know, we want market share for independent beer to be 20, 30%.

Martin (12:47)
Yeah.

Yeah,

has it gone up from 7 % or is it exactly the same from last year?

Neil Walker (13:00)
We think

it has it's it's difficult. We will know more later this year. We've got some kind of other surveying going on and things like that. But I think I think it has improved. But there's still a long, long way to go. We've also seen a bit of obviously there's been lots of brewery closures as well. And that affects the stats. But that's not how we want to get there. You know, we don't want to get to a high market.

Martin (13:20)
lot of

pub closures as well. I mean, if they're owned by globally owned pubcos, then that will obviously increase the percentage because there'd be less of them sort of pubs around.

Neil Walker (13:32)
Yeah,

and you know what, ultimately as well, it's not just about like, it's not just about we want this because it's good for independent brewers It's actually good for pubs as well. you know, pubs that sell a range of beers, pubs that sell independent beers alongside kind of mainstream beers. So it's absolutely fine. You want to have, you've got loads of specialist pubs and that's brilliant. And we want to support that, of course, but an average pub should have a range of independent beers alongside global beers as well, because that is what people want.

If people go in and they see the same brands that they can see absolutely everywhere, then they're going to get bored. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, giving people a range of options. also we'd argue that if you've got a group of people where some of them ⁓ like cask beer, some of them like independent keg beer, whatever, and you've got, you know, the other half of the group that drink kind of mainstream beers or like a Guinness or whatever, it's probably going to be the people that

Martin (14:07)
that you can also get in the supermarkets for a lot cheaper as well.

Neil Walker (14:28)
like the independent beer and like their cask beers they're gonna choose what pub you go to. So pubs need to have a range of both. And if you wanna attract a diverse range of customers, you've got to have some options. So yeah, it's a good thing for all really. I always find it amazing that you've got pubs talking about locally sourced food and handmade burgers and all this type of stuff. You look on the bar and the beer's from Denmark and America, which just doesn't make any sense to me

Martin (14:49)
Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. If you're going to preach about doing local food, you can also do local beer. mean, at least stock for the pubs that are in the area, at least stock from breweries that are local to you, you know, within a certain mile radius or something within of the pub. That's the very least every pub should be able to do.

Neil Walker (15:04)
Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Martin (15:12)
But

obviously that moment there, tied by these big pubco's to only purchase what they can, what the pubco's have given them to purchase and at probably a higher price as well. ⁓ Obviously you said you're one of the guys, obviously SIBA and Indie Beer Campaign is one of the bodies that are giving ⁓ advice to the government on access to market.

But obviously these other organisations are very much with the globals and the pubco's. How hard is that for you guys to make independent beer in these pubs a priority when the other organisations are kind of pushing back, I guess, because of their support in other places as well?

Neil Walker (15:58)
Yeah, I mean, obviously, as you know, we're a member of SIBA is a membership organisation, we represent independent breweries of all kinds, and we represent actually non-members as well. You we're in government fighting on behalf of ⁓ members and non-members as long as we're independent. So that's what we're all about. And other trade associations have got even more diverse memberships, so they will have some kind of

smaller or medium sized breweries, they'll have global breweries that are involved and also pub companies and pub owners and things like that. So they've got to do what's best for their membership. there is some kind of differing of opinion between the different trade associations, but SIBA certainly is the only one that's representing purely independent brewers. That's what we're all about.

I'd argue that the CAMRA pretty much aligned with us on the vast majority of things. You know, they represent beer drinkers and consumers. Ultimately, their members drink the beers that SIBA's members make. So I think we're pretty much aligned. But yeah, there's lots of differing opinions. But what I would say is that I think the industry has got better at and by the industry, I mean, you know, all those trade associations together has got better at trying to find where the common ground is, you know, trying to find what do we agree on.

What are the things which are not controversial? Where can we work together? Because that's where you get real change, is finding where there's a common ground and what you can work together. Ultimately, we want all of us. We want a thriving pub market. Now, we might disagree on what the split of independent beer and global beer is, how we talk about that, or whatever. But ultimately, we all want busy pubs. We want thriving breweries.

Martin (17:33)
Yeah, we want option

as well.

Neil Walker (17:34)
Yeah, exactly. And I think actually, you know, I think pub companies do understand that, that they need to have some diversity, they need to have some range in there, much in the same way as the supermarkets do. mean, you know, we've got much better range of independent beer in supermarkets than we did 10 years ago, like way, way better. And I think it's coming through in pubs as well. think the expectation from a consumer is so much higher.

Martin (17:53)
⁓ 100%.

Neil Walker (18:00)
If you walk into a pub and they've got four beers on it, it's Carling, Madri, Foster's and Carlsberg. I can't remember the last time that did happen actually, but if you go in, you're going to be like, what is going on here?

Martin (18:08)
Yeah, but then

you'll walk out, go to another pub and see exactly the same lineup. it's, you know, it benefit, benefit the pubco's to allow independent beer to be ordered by their tenants, simply because it make that pub more unique to any of to the other pubs, because every other pub will be selling different independent beer. Yes, they might all have the same global beers, but they have different independent beers, and then that'll make them unique.

Neil Walker (18:12)
Exactly.

Yeah.

and

Yeah, and I think also like, I mean, I think one of the I think one of the most important parts of the Indie beer campaign and what it's aimed to do and what I think it has done to a large extent is changing the language a little bit and simplifying it. So we've we've kind of like messed around in the industry for 10, 20 years trying to wrestle with what's craft, you know, end and well, this is cask and this is keg and actually it doesn't matter. And having a really clear message about, well, these are global beers.

Martin (18:53)
Yeah.

Neil Walker (19:01)
and these are independent beers. These are owned by independent, relatively small breweries of all kinds. It doesn't matter if it's cask, keg, bottle, can, whatever the style. It could be British, bitter or it can be, know, sour beer, American IPA. That isn't the point. And actually I think that craft beer and that side of things was a bit of a distraction for a long time. having indie beer and having something which is really clear, it means it's a relatively small, independent British brewery.

Martin (19:03)
Yeah.

Neil Walker (19:27)
That's made it lot easier with politicians and with government. We can really clearly see what we're talking about and what we're not talking about in a really simple way. I think that's been massively beneficial. We've certainly seen the language around beer change. mean, pointing again to Waitrose, they were like, actually, we've realised now that we're not talking about craft beer here. This isn't our craft beer range because we've got really traditional

Martin (19:34)
Yeah. Yeah.

Neil Walker (19:54)
old-school kind of bitters in it but they're from local breweries. Yeah exactly and you know definitely and you know the the argument that something like Harvey's you know is not ⁓ a craft beer and I think I said this along along the lines last time but it just doesn't stand up so I think you know talking about indie beer talking about independent brewing that that's that's the thing to do and that's what we're doing and I think the voice in government

Martin (19:54)
You can argue that everything's craft though, can't you really? Because it's all made by a brewer at the end of the day.

Yeah.

Neil Walker (20:23)
via SIBA and certainly with the Indie beer campaign backing it as well, has never been stronger. They are listening and we are making representation as strongly as we possibly can. But yeah, as you say, there's lots of other parties involved. There's lots of other, well, changes in government and things like that don't help either. We've got a lot of turmoil in government. We've had recent changes on things like business rates, which did not go the way the industry. Yeah, exactly.

Martin (20:41)
Yeah.

business rates, increase, national insurance, all that stuff.

Neil Walker (20:53)
representation from bodies like SIBA, you know, got that reversal, know, got that change. So we're definitely having an effect, but it's still tough out there for independent breweries.

Martin (21:04)
Yeah,

I mean, it was definitely tough before Labour got into government. ⁓ And access to market was obviously a big thing. But now with the business rates and everything on top, it's just making everything even harder. And it's just like, you're fighting a never ending battle, you know, it's just, you go for one thing and then they pile on something else to make it even harder for you guys.

Neil Walker (21:25)
Yeah.

Martin (21:27)
So, beer X just around the corner on March 18th, which is literally will be a couple of days after this podcast gets released. What can brewers and retailers expect this year? Is it what's different?

Neil Walker (21:32)
Yeah.

Yeah, well, I mean, it's UK's biggest really. So it's the UK's biggest beer and brewing trade event. It was our biggest in terms of attendance last year. So we had 3,500 people at the exhibition in Liverpool. It was buzzing and everything is on track to match or hopefully beat that this year. I think there's loads and loads of highlights.  when I think about what's going on this year, it's definitely our most packed

Martin (21:53)
So good.

Neil Walker (22:08)
content schedule. it's the most most seminars, most tastings, most talks panels that we've ever done. You know, we've got that across three stages now, all of which have increased in size, you know, our tasting theatre now is for 100 people. So that makes it the biggest kind of tutored tasting happening anywhere in the UK. I mean, in terms of like highlights for this year is probably too many. I'll tell you what, I'll give you I'll give you three for each day. So

Martin (22:24)
That's good.

Yeah.

Neil Walker (22:36)
We've got a tasting a panel and a keynote for each day. So in terms of the Wednesday, there's a really good one with Annabel Smith. So Annabel Smith, she works for Cask Marque, also works for the Guild of Beer Sommeliers really, really experienced kind of beer educator and, you know, lecturer, I suppose, on beer. She's doing a really, really interesting one about kind of classic British beer styles. So obviously tasting some of those beers.

but giving a bit of history as to why certain beer styles emerged, why certain beer styles fell away, why India Pale Ale is still around and why that emerged, but also looking into some lesser known styles and also a bit of tasting of some kind of recreation of historic styles as well. So I think it's gonna be quite a narrative kind of tasting session as well. She's gonna be giving a kind of narrative history of beer. I think that'll be really, really interesting.

Also on the Wednesday, there's gonna be a panel with ⁓ Matt Curtis from Pellicle and Katie Mather from Pellicle as well, and some other representatives from other publications. I think we've got some guys from Ferment and Tim Sheahan from ⁓ Brewers Journal. And they're doing a piece on the state of beer media. So kind of where beer media is in the UK, how brewers can get involved, what's going on in the beer industry in terms of writing, podcasting.

broadcasting all that type of stuff. So I think that'll be a really interesting one for brewers. We've then got the first of our headliners. So we've got a headliner with Sasha Lord, who's the chair of the Night Time Industries Association. He's doing a kind of kind of like a fireside chat really. So we've got our chief executive Andy is going to be on stage with Sasha doing a kind of Q and A, which I think could be a little bit  a little bit different for a keynote. So he's doing

Then on Thursday, we've got Pete Brown is returning to do his beer and music matching So he did this a couple of years ago and it's the one that we get requested most So we get people asking, you know, you're gonna be doing this again We've left it for a few years and but now he's launched his book. So he's got his tasting notes book So he's got a lot more beers that he's got pairings for now. So he's gonna be coming back

doing some different ones and he's going to be doing that this time around actually exclusively with ⁓ UK independent breweries and some of their beers so that'll be really good.

Martin (24:58)
Is he

hosting the Business Awards as well, isn't he? Yeah. Earn your money, Pete.

Neil Walker (25:01)
He is, yeah, so he's going to be, we're keeping him busy. So he's going to be hosting the business awards on the.

Yeah, exactly. And his business awards on the first night and then the beer awards, Indie beer awards on the second night. And those Indie beer awards as well. It's the first national Indie beer awards. So, you know, we have a full kind of year of regional independent beer awards, which start in April and then run around to BeerX in March. So this is the first national one. So really, really excited for that.

What else we've got? We've also got a really good panel about kind of investment in the ⁓ beer sector. So is the beer sector worth investing in? So that's going to be with Christian Barden from E-KEG, who one of our headline sponsors. He's joined by James Allison from Napthems Solicitors, kind of beer industry specialist solicitors, and also John Westlake from the CAMRA Investment Club. So they kind of invest in breweries. He's going to talk about what they look for investment. And Christian's going to talk about kind

presenting investment, obviously, you know, with E-Keg that required lots of investment and lots of kind of building of that company. So yeah, he's got some really good experience on that and looking forward to We've also got a ⁓ kind of double headline this year. So we've got two keynotes and we've got Bart Watson from the Brew Association. He's the new, I think it's president they refer to as very American. So president of the Brew Association. Gonna be talking about.

kind of US beer market and independence and giving us a look across the pond so that'll be good as well.

Martin (26:29)
brilliant

Yeah,

see what they're doing. So obviously they're having a bit of a thing over there as well with independent breweries closing down as well.

Neil Walker (26:38)
Definitely. think they've got, I mean, I don't want to make too many parallels in political terms, but I think they've got certainly political turmoil in America at the moment. I think the most difficult thing about that, it's not about which political party you're in power. It's just about the kind of being able to predict what's going to happen. And I think the problem they've got at the moment in America is, you know, we were having conversations with the Brewer's Association. This is what they're saying is that it's just hard to know what's coming. It's hard to know if tomorrow something's going to change. And I think there's been quite a bit of

Martin (27:03)
very unpredictable.

Neil Walker (27:05)
very unpredictable and that makes it really difficult to run a business. know, if you're looking to start doing exporting or you're looking to, you know, with the American system, selling between states is almost like exporting because they have just such different rules. And if you're a business that's looking to sell even across states in America, then that unpredictability is really difficult. So be interesting to see his thoughts on that actually. And think I think there'll be some really good questions from the audience we're trying to.

Martin (27:18)
Yeah.

Neil Walker (27:31)
have some questions from the audience as well. It's actually taking place, that second keynote, as part of the SIBA AGM. So he's kind of our special guest and we'll be kind of talking during the SIBA AGM. So the audience is gonna be full of brewers that are there for the AGM. So yeah, be interesting to get his thoughts.

Martin (27:48)
Great, awesome. So for any breweries attending for the first time, how can they maximise this opportunity?

Neil Walker (27:55)
I mean, I'd say two things. think the first thing is to bring your whole team. So, BeerX we try to be as eclectic as possible in terms of the sessions that we do. So we hope that there'll be something for your social media manager, but we equally hope that there'll be something for the CEO. You know, we've got talks about succession planning and, you know, building a business across generations as much as we've got stuff about, you know, branding and marketing and that side of thing. So if you can.

bring your whole team. We took a stance a couple of years ago to continue doing free tickets. So after COVID, we offered free delegate tickets and we actually saw, you know, delegate numbers go up, but we also saw people bringing their whole teams as a result of that. So if you're lucky enough to have, you know, eight, nine, 10, whatever, 15 members of staff, then get them along to BeerX because there's a lot happening and there's a lot there. And in terms of free training for your whole team.

you couldn't ask for a better environment really. And then the second one is download the BeerX app. So I believe there's an update going through on that this Friday. So if you check it now, there might be some stuff which is out of date. might be some last year's one, but the updates are going through this Friday, I believe. So yeah, download the app. It's got all of the information about the seminars that taking place, the fringe events, all of the beers are on there as well. So there's a really good kind of beer finder app. You can filter by the different regions. You can save beers.

all of that stuff so it's really really useful so to make the most of the event definitely download that. It's a completely paperless event so we don't have a printed program so in order to know what's going on we do have digital signs outside the stages and things but the best way is obviously via the app or via the BeerX website.

Martin (29:39)
Yeah, definitely. And one big positive is the Indie Beer Awards. We'll be back again this year at BeerX. And one thing that's new is as they get entry into the World Beer Cup. Let's talk a bit about that.

Neil Walker (29:44)
Yep.

Yeah.

Yes. I mean, I'm really proud of that. I think it's great. We've got 15 breweries that are going to be the World Cup, will be a cup this year from from the UK. So they were see Indie beer winners now going forward to Philadelphia. And I think it's obviously it's partly about exports. So, you know, you kind of put yourself on the international international stage and you put yourself up for awards. And if you know, if you're a brewery that's looking to export into America or to other places.

that's going to be really helpful. more than that, think it's about bigging up independent beer and British beer particularly. Some of the best beer in the world in any style is being brewed in the UK right now. So mean, how amazing would it be if one of our brewers goes to America and beats the Americans in New England, or makes the best West Coast Pilsner or...

Martin (30:39)
It would be, wouldn't it?

imagine that

yeah.

Neil Walker (30:45)
That would be absolutely amazing and I think that's what it's about. It's about showing the breadth and depth and quality of British beer. So we want to do that and we want to make it easier for breweries of all sizes, so independent breweries of all sizes, to be able to do that. So the Indie Beer Awards are kind funding those entries. So we pay the entry fees, we handle the logistics and...

make sure that it's as easy as possible so that those brewers can be represented on the international stage. you know, the way we look at it is you kind of, you know, when in the UK, then you go on to the World Cup. And equally with Germany. we're doing the same thing with European Beer Star in Germany. Now, that's a competition which definitely is an international competition. So they get entries from all over the world, but it's really heavily entered by Germany and by the kind of European countries. So

It's dominated by lager styles. So really, really amazing. And I've judged that for a couple of years. It's a brilliant competition, but the depth and the quality of those lager styles, particularly, and the kind of European styles is amazing. again, you if we've got British brewers making some brilliant lagers, know, people like Utopian, absolutely fantastic. And, you know, they can punch with the best. how good would it be? I mean, yeah, I don't know how, mean,

Martin (31:52)
Utopian. I was literally thinking of Utopian straight away with their styles.

And using British ingredients as well, it's like, it makes it even better.

Neil Walker (32:02)
absolute wizards. I don't really know how they do it, but you know, if they get off to European beer star and, you know, win best Czech Pilsner or win best Munich style Helles, how good is that going to be? Exactly. obviously, don't get me wrong, it's going to be amazing if we go over there and we win the English Porter category because, they do have category. And you'd hope we would,

Martin (32:12)
Their Dortmunder is amazing. I do like their Dortmunder.

Yeah, well we should do.

Neil Walker (32:25)
Yeah. So, I you we and I think I think representation of those types of beers I mean, I've not actually judged at World Beer Cup. I am going to be judging this year, which I'm really looking forward to. So I'm going to be in. And but I've. Yeah, well, yeah, I've got the invite. I've been trying to get an invite for a couple of years, but I finally got it this And so, yeah, really looking forward to that. But European beer star which I have judged at, you know, the quality of the base is really excellent across the board.

Martin (32:33)
brilliant How jealous am I that you're going Philadelphia? ⁓

Neil Walker (32:49)
maybe a little bit disappointed on the kind of English styles because I think that's because a lot of English breweries just don't enter. know, we have a lot of competition in the UK. There's loads of CAMRA competitions going on, loads of other kind ⁓ of independent competitions that you pay to enter and things like that. Things like great taste awards and stuff like that. So there's plenty of competitions in the UK already. So I think a lot of people and brewers in the UK don't really look at those international competitions, but they should because actually, you know,

Martin (32:55)
Yeah.

Neil Walker (33:17)
they could dominate in some of those English categories, I think. You know, our British bitters and our English style porters and all that type of stuff, we are definitely the best at brewing those beer styles. You know, I've tasted beers from all over the world and nobody does British beer styles as good as Britain. I mean, I'd argue nobody does as German lager as good as the Germans, but I think we're trying. But yeah, it's something, yeah, I'm really excited about it. I mean, whether we win anything or not.

Martin (33:20)
Yeah.

Well, yeah, definitely get in there.

Neil Walker (33:45)
doesn't really matter, but hopefully we do.

Martin (33:46)
Yeah, it's about taking part and getting as many British breweries out there ⁓ as possible in the competing, really.

Neil Walker (33:55)
Yeah,

and also benchmarking yourself. mean, entering these competitions, it isn't just about the awards, it's about the feedback. mean, the quality of the judging of these types of awards is phenomenal. So, you know, you'll have a judging table, which is, know, beer sommeliers and master Cicerones and master brewers. And that's about it. You know, four to six of those around a table. So if you're sending in a beer and you want to know what whether it is to style, whether it's

what the issues are with it, what's great, what needs improving. You're gonna get that feedback as well. So I think that in itself is hugely valuable. And then if it does really well and wins an award, then that's a cherry on the cake.

Martin (34:31)
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Cask is picking up a bit across the water as well. Then over the US, think a lot more people are doing Cask beer.

Neil Walker (34:40)
Yeah, definitely. think we need to protect it in the UK as well. mean, I think we need to talk it up. There's been a lot spoken about ⁓ about cask beer and having an image problem or it not be appealing to younger people. That has not been our experience at all with the Indie beer campaign and through SIBA. Actually, it's having a lot of cut through to younger people. Now, that could be price and price orientated a little bit. So we've got to include this because cask beer tends to be a cheaper beer than some other beers.

Martin (34:56)
Yeah.

could be.

Neil Walker (35:09)
that's having a bit of cut through, but we've actually seen it increase. So they might have younger people drinking cask. We've seen it increase. And more generally about cask, I think the narrative that cask beer is in decline is true if you only look at the national beer brands. So if you only look at Doombar and that's available everywhere, yeah, volumes are probably dropping. But actually amongst independents, we saw 10 % growth last year. And like I said, we've got our figures coming out again in April. So hopefully that'll

Martin (35:24)
Yeah, Doombar Yeah.

Neil Walker (35:37)
have increased or would have maintained, but cask volumes increased. So it's not that people are tired of cask, it's people that are tired of the same old tired cask. They want interesting cask beer from local breweries and talking about it and promoting it as an amazing British product. love what the Craft Beer Channel did with their stuff around the Unesco intangible cultural heritage. I know they weren't quite successful in what they originally set out to do, but I think...

kind of building on that and continuing to grow that and talking about cask beer as being this amazing uniquely British thing. And not in a sense of kind of jingoistic kind of like, it's all about Britain. Just that we've got this amazing product, which we need to be proud of in the same way French have got it in the

Martin (36:15)
Yeah. It should be heritage. mean,

it's something that was uniquely done in Britain and not anywhere else. And it's become a big part of British history and culture.

Neil Walker (36:29)
Yeah.

Martin (36:29)
And

Neil Walker (36:30)
I think it shows a maturity in the industry as well. think there was, again, going back to what we talking before about craft versus cask versus cask and all that type of stuff think that's not there anymore. I think people understand that actually it's about format. So if you've got a really nice mild or you've got a British bitter or a...

porter or something like that. It's probably going to taste better on cask. So put it on cask. If you've got, you know, a 7 % American IPA, it's probably going to taste better on keg. So do it on keg. And I think breweries are realising that and actually people go into a tap room expecting there to be a mix of cask and keg. So I think those breweries like Neon Raptor, and was at Cloudwater recently and, and track as well, which is on the same kind of industrial estate as Cloudwater. And they're doing both because that's what consumers want. And

beers taste different you know I love Sonoma which is Tracks kind of it's 3.8 percent kind of session IPA style pale ale style and it's delicious but it tastes totally different on cask and keg both are equally good but they're very very different beers you know one on cask is kind of smooth and lighter and kind of more more drinkable in a sense but then the

keg version is more refreshing and kind of brighter and you know get more of that kind of top note hop character so it's about the format the it's about the beer fit in the format really.

Martin (37:53)
Yeah, yes, mean,

CO2 obviously does enhance that hop flavour.

especially the dry hopping side of things. yeah, some great cask and again, it's the same access to market. If you can get more of these independent cask beers into into pubs just as much as the keg side, it's only going to be benefiting the consumer to have great cask beer. And obviously, like we said, not get tired and bored of the same old cask that's no longer independently owned. So yeah.

Neil Walker (37:58)
Yeah.

I

Martin (38:25)
⁓ We're finish off with this final question. For breweries that haven't engaged with BeerX or SIBA or Indie Beer Campaign, what would you say to them?

Neil Walker (38:36)
I mean, talking about, I'll do SIBA first. We kind of covered BeerX a bit, so I won't go on that too much, but if you haven't already, go get your tickets for BeerX BeerX. But SIBA SIBA, as I said before, we represent independent breweries with the only voice that solely represents independent breweries. We also do, you know, we have members and supplier associate members who are like hop companies ⁓ and brewery fabricators and all that type of stuff, so suppliers to independent breweries.

Martin (38:40)
Yeah.

Neil Walker (39:03)
But ultimately we are all about independent beer, independent breweries. So if you want to have a voice, if you want to have access to the latest information, if you want to have tools and advice, which is up to date and which is specifically about your business, about independent breweries, then SIBA is the only place to get that. And it's incredibly good value for a small brewery. know, it's a couple of hundred pounds a year for the smallest breweries. And it goes up slightly in terms of like the brewery size.

it's really fair and you can get benefit from day one. Some of those member benefits like Napthems and the LTC Portal, they genuinely are worth joining for that alone. And hours legal help for free.

as many times throughout the year as you want, that can save your business. So if you're struggling, then join. If you want to get involved in the awards, then join. You get free entry into the Indie Beer Awards as a SIBA member. Non-SIBA members can also enter those awards, but they to pay to enter those awards. So again, if you're going to be entering, it makes sense to be a member because it's free to get into those awards. So yeah, it's a really, really great way to build your business and to join.

independent beer industry properly and have a voice. So yeah, if you haven't done already, I would really encourage people to join SIBA Indie Beer Week. So it's our second one. So we did our kind of inaugural Indie Beer Week last year and it's around the same time this year. So it's the 10th to the 19th of April this year. It kind of takes in two weekends. So it's a kind of Friday to the following Sunday. So two weekends, 10th to 19th of April. And really,

What we're looking for is a celebration of independent beer across the whole of the UK. So whether it's tap takeovers or meet the brewer events or special releases or tastings or beer festivals, we want every single venue in the UK that's selling independent beer, every single brewery that's producing independent beer to get involved during Indie Beer Week. If you send that through via the website, so there's an event submission form on the website. So if you go to indiebeer.uk.

and you can sign up on there and we're gonna be listing all those events in the run up to Indie Beer Week.

Probably even more importantly, by signing up and submitting your event on there, we're going to be doing loads and loads of regional press releases. So just before Indie Beer Week, we're going to be sending press releases all over the UK, featuring the nine regions that we break the country up into and saying, Indie Beer Week is happening, here's all the events that happening in your area. So we're going to be trying to drive local people to these pubs, to these taprooms.

to these breweries and things like that. So yeah, if you haven't already get behind Indie Beer Week, we're going to be pushing it as hard as we possibly can. And like I say, we're going to be featuring a hundred different pubs with the ones that we're kind of sending stuff to. But even more than that, we're going be sending it to every single brewery that's supporting the campaign. So yeah, it's the best way to get involved in the Indie Beer Campaign coming up in the next couple of months. So yeah, have a look.

Martin (41:56)
Yep. And if

you're a consumer and you can't get to any of these events, please, please purchase some independent beer and celebrate indie beer week by having a drink at home.

Neil Walker (42:05)
Yeah,

absolutely. Yeah. So give us a shout out on Instagram and we'll be sharing it on TikTok as well. We're going to be sharing stuff on there. So yeah, give us a shout out, drink some Indie beer at home and get involved in the week.

Martin (42:18)
hashtag Indie Beer Week. That's the one ⁓ that's a perfect ending to the episode. Neil, thank you again for coming back on the show. I must have done something right the first time.

Neil Walker (42:19)
Yes, yep, Indie Beer week.

My

pleasure. I'm always happy to talk on this. yeah, we'll do the trio and we'll talk about something else next time. But yeah, that was great, mate. Thanks for having me.

Martin (42:41)
It's been a pleasure and I'll see you at BeerX in a couple of days after this release. Until a couple of weeks time, ⁓ we'll see you back again soon. ⁓ Yeah. Thanks a lot. Thanks for tuning in. Don't forget to like and subscribe and follow whatever platform you listen to the podcast on. And we'll see you next time. Cheers. Bye bye.

Neil Walker (43:00)
Cheers.