The Fab Four: Malt With Ben & Simon of Muntons

WEBVTT

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 and so many different approaches to one material

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 and what you can do with it, it's like a canvas to...

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 Yeah, it's endless, isn't it?

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 Endless possibilities.

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 Hello and welcome to another episode of The B-Rap Chats with

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 and the final episode of our Fab Four series.

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 And today we're talking about Malt

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 and I'm delighted to be joined by two guys from Munson's, Ben and Simon.

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 Thanks for joining the show.

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 Hello.

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 Pleasure to be here.

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 Yeah, thanks for coming on.

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 We're going to go over a bit of a quick history of Munson's.

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 For listeners who might not know the name,

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 obviously there's many people know you guys in the industry,

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 but as customers and listeners, they might not know what Munson's do.

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 So, give us a quick history of Munson's

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 and how the business has grown over the years.

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 So, yeah, we started as a company in 1921.

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 We've been doing what we've been doing for over 100 years now,

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 where we've got a couple of sites across the UK.

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 We're primarily headquartered in Suffolk in Stowmarket.

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 We are based on, funnily enough, an old parachute factory,

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 which as World War One ended,

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 we took over the factory to start producing Malt

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 because parachutes were going out of fashion, basically.

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 So, yeah, since then, we've been creating high-quality Malt from British barley.

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 We acquired a site up north in Yorkshire

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 and a heating plant very recently in Type Top

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 to supply our distilling customers with smoked Malt.

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 And we've just been continuing to work hard on our fundamentals

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 of providing really good quality Malt to brewers, distillers,

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 and providing the food sector as well with Malt extracts as well,

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 and also brewing customers with Malt extract as well.

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 Yeah. Can you explain what Malt extract is to people that might not know?

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 Yeah. So, Malt extract is basically kind of like a concentrated wort.

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 So, we've done the hard work of doing a mash, basically,

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 and doing the wort separation, and then we evaporate it.

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 So, it's just a concentrated wort that you can use for various applications,

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 whether that be dark products that can add a bit of color

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 and a bit of roasted flavor to a beer.

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 So, you can tint up a beer that's slightly too light

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 or boost your original gravity in the brew house

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 by adding a bit of Malt extract.

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 Yeah. And thanks for a super easy brew day

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 if you go to all Malt extract as well.

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 No spent grain to deal with.

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 Yeah. Pretty similar to the old extract kits

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 you used to get from Boots for the older generation listening in.

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 Yeah, absolutely. We are a massive supplier

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 of those kind of Malt extracts for homebrew.

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 If you are a homebrewer and you're listening to this podcast,

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 you probably, hopefully, know and love Mantan's homebrew kits.

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 It was certainly what got me into brewing.

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 It's how I started as a homebrewer.

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 So, I think that's how most people start, Ben, isn't it?

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 Exactly.

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 With that Malt extract can you need to warm up and then...

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 Apart from me, I didn't start that way.

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 I dove straight into the old grain recipes on the grandfather.

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 Yeah, I was just thinking if I'm going to do homebrewing,

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 I want to do it, I'm going to learn everything.

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 Yeah, absolutely.

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 Yeah, never got to try the extract kits

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 and I've never actually used any of it actually either.

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 Malt extracts, it's all just been all grain for me at the moment.

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 Yeah, what do you think are some of the key moments

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 that have really shaped Mantan's over the years?

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 Well, I guess a kind of key thing for us has been

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 looking at our sustainability.

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 I can't really put it on the timeline.

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 I don't know the company quite that well.

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 Plus, you're not that old.

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 Well, exactly.

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 Yeah, when the company's 100 years old and I'm just 31,

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 it's a bit hard to give a kind of lived history.

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 Yeah, we are always working super hard

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 on our environmental credentials.

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 We've been investing in biomass boilers

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 to power our kilns to do the drying

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 and to provide us with steam

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 for kind of all of the processes we need on site.

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 We have an anaerobic digester on site

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 which your listeners may not be super aware of

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 but it allows us to take our wastewater from...

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 Because malting uses a lot of water basically

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 with steeping barley to make it germinate

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 and then all of that water needs to go somewhere

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 and it's very high in kind of things

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 that you wouldn't want to put in a river basically

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 or down the sewer.

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 So we treat it.

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 We can generate biogas from that

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 and it's a very good source of biogas

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 to further lower our carbon emissions

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 out of our processes.

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 Sort of like a renewable energy kind of thing.

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 Yeah, absolutely.

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 Yeah, so we're setting targets every day basically

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 to drive our sustainability,

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 make our processes better,

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 make it greener and cleaner.

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 Yeah, that sounds great.

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 The whole UK is behind renewable energy.

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 For anyone new to brewing,

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 home brewers mainly,

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 can you kind of break down the malting process

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 in as simple as you can?

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 You know, what actually happens

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 during steeping germination?

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 Yeah, sure.

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 So I guess I'll pick this one up.

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 So yeah, basically malting is kind of like

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 just starting the process of growing a barley plant.

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 So if you imagine try and grow anything

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 I'm sure people have a bit of experience

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 with growing something.

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 You want to get the seed wet

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 so it can start growing.

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 For us, that's called the steeping process.

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 So we'll mix tons upon tons upon tons

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 of barley seed

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 with a certain nitrogen specification to it

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 and various other quality checks

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 that we do before we even start the steeping process.

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 Mix it with a lot of water

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 and aerate it to mix it

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 to give the seed a chance to soak up some water.

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 We'll typically then drain it

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 and give it what's called an air rest.

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 That allows the barley to overcome

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 some of its dormancy and start that process

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 just beginning to form a little rootlet.

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 We'd probably then soak it again

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 and use air again to kind of give it

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 a nice boost of some oxygen to get going

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 and also bubbling air through everything.

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 It's a really good mixer

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 and if you've got to just mix a huge amount of material

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 it's really useful to do that.

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 Also helps blow out the CO2 that's forming

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 because obviously we've got is a living thing.

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 Every thing that's living tends to,

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 just like us, just breathe in oxygen

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 and breathe out CO2.

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 Once we've done that process,

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 obviously for every barley seed,

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 there are different varieties.

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 We try to maybe aim for a slightly different product.

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 How we steep with water,

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 how long of an air rest we do,

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 the temperature that we do for steeping

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 is all slightly different for different products.

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 But the aim of that steeping

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 is just to get water and oxygen into the barley seed.

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 From there, we begin the process of germination.

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 That just means we've got a little plant

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 it's beginning to grow.

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 What we're aiming for in the germination process

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 is to begin breaking down

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 the internal components of the barley

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 to make them more accessible for brewers.

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 We begin breaking down the complex proteins

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 that are holding together all the lovely starch molecules

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 that will go on to become the alcohol

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 and the flavor of beer.

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 Is that the endosperm, isn't it?

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 Exactly, exactly.

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 We're breaking down the endosperm.

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 I've done a bit of research.

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 Yeah, no good, I can tell.

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 We're turning a very hard, not crushable at all endosperm

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 into that kind of white, fluffy,

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 very crushable material

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 that everyone knows and loves from malt.

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 So a professor that I used to study under

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 described malting as basically a similar enough process

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 to what goes on in a mash tun.

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 But we're doing 95% of the work, basically,

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 across a week at a lower temperature.

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 But we're still, the same processes are going on.

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 There's starch breakdown so that the plant

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 can harvest sugar to keep growing.

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 There's breakdown of proteins

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 to give the growing plant the nitrogen that it needs.

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 We'll use maybe a little bit of a gibberellic acid,

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 which kind of boosts the growth

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 and boosts enzyme production within the barley

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 and kind of speeds things along a little bit.

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 Again, the kind of germination process,

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 temperature, time, it has a massive impact

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 on the final product.

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 The longer we allow germination,

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 typically the more modified the malt will be.

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 Modification is this really key parameter

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 for a lot of brewers.

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 Everything in malting is kind of like a balancing act.

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 In all brewing, to be fair,

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 in most industry everything's a balancing act.

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 You can't get everything you want all the time necessarily.

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 As modification continues,

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 all of the starches, all of the proteins

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 become more and more accessible.

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 But because the barley has grown more into a plant,

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 it means there's less accessible stuff.

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 You're losing sugar, you're losing proteins

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 to just the plant growing,

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 which we then knock off the bits

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 that are the plant itself

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 and still leave you with the modified seed.

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 For some brewers, they want a really over-modified malt

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 because it's so easy to break down.

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 It has a suitability to working with a mash

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 at just a fixed temperature,

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 so like an isothermal mash.

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 But other brewers want a really under-modified malt

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 because it retains a lot of the protein,

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 which is really great for a mouthfeel and a head retention.

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 But the problem is getting two of those starches

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 to give you that beer on an under-modified malt

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 is more challenging.

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 But every brewer is different,

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 and that's part of what I love about the brewing industry

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 is you have the same material

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 and so many different approaches to one material,

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 and what you can do with it is like a canvas.

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 It's endless, isn't it?

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 Exactly, yeah.

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 So yeah, that's steeping and germination.

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 And the kilning.

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 Yeah, exactly.

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 And then on to kilning, again,

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 that's kind of where our end goal, I guess,

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 is to provide something where we've stopped

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 that germination process.

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 We've kept the enzyme activity

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 that brewers will need to carry on when they do the mash.

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 And we want to get down to a moisture level

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 that means the product is shelf-stable,

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 because if we were shipping around living plants,

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 one, it wouldn't crash in the mill,

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 and two, it's a bit of a finickety thing to work with.

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 I certainly have problems keeping my houseplants alive.

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 Certainly, if I was a brewer,

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 I wouldn't want to be worried about keeping my malt alive.

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 I stay away from all flowers in my house.

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 And they still die, they die anyway,

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 but yeah, at least I'm not the one to blame

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 if I stay away from them.

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 So the other thing that we do when we're kilning

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 is we begin that process of kind of flavor development

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 of like those roasted kind of notes.

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 And so we can kiln a hotter,

254
00:14:09.100 --> 00:14:10.860
 you know, again, time temperature,

255
00:14:11.920 --> 00:14:13.940
 the different temperatures of different times you use

256
00:14:13.940 --> 00:14:18.860
 has a massive impact on that final kind of like quality

257
00:14:18.860 --> 00:14:21.200
 of the malt and the different product

258
00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:22.120
 that you're aiming for.

259
00:14:22.820 --> 00:14:26.260
 So for the kind of like lightly colored malt,

260
00:14:26.460 --> 00:14:29.860
 so for example, the kind of, yeah,

261
00:14:29.920 --> 00:14:32.640
 the lagers and the pales will have a kind of a-

262
00:14:32.640 --> 00:14:33.160
 You marry starters.

263
00:14:33.160 --> 00:14:34.220
 Yeah, exactly.

264
00:14:34.620 --> 00:14:38.120
 Yeah, marasota, like a pale marasota, for example,

265
00:14:38.220 --> 00:14:41.860
 you'll have a very kind of like gentle kilning process

266
00:14:41.860 --> 00:14:45.660
 where we're not looking for so much color development

267
00:14:45.660 --> 00:14:49.720
 and the aim is kind of just to dry the barley,

268
00:14:50.300 --> 00:14:52.480
 but, you know, or sorry, malt at this point.

269
00:14:54.380 --> 00:14:56.860
 And yeah, kind of develop those kind of like

270
00:14:56.860 --> 00:14:59.760
 more bread-y, biscuit-y kind of notes

271
00:14:59.760 --> 00:15:03.080
 as opposed to going really harsh on the kilning

272
00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:08.220
 where you can develop, yeah, some more kind of,

273
00:15:08.220 --> 00:15:11.200
 a bit of the kind of like darker end of notes.

274
00:15:11.620 --> 00:15:14.940
 So not necessarily as high as like, you know,

275
00:15:15.080 --> 00:15:19.080
 coffee or chocolatey because that's a roasting process

276
00:15:19.080 --> 00:15:19.920
 which is separate.

277
00:15:21.980 --> 00:15:24.600
 We can start to develop kind of like

278
00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:27.740
 caramelly flavors a little bit or, you know,

279
00:15:27.820 --> 00:15:30.480
 kind of like nutty, I guess is maybe the best way

280
00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:32.980
 of describing the flavors coming out of it.

281
00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:35.460
 Yeah, so that'd be like a light Munich.

282
00:15:35.900 --> 00:15:38.220
 Yeah, exactly, like a light Munich, exactly.

283
00:15:38.460 --> 00:15:38.980
 That's the spot.

284
00:15:39.160 --> 00:15:40.640
 Like Vienna and stuff like that.

285
00:15:41.280 --> 00:15:41.540
 Yeah.

286
00:15:41.820 --> 00:15:43.660
 Yeah, caramal or them sort of.

287
00:15:43.660 --> 00:15:46.060
 Yeah, well caramal is an interesting one

288
00:15:46.060 --> 00:15:48.000
 because that's a slightly different process.

289
00:15:48.100 --> 00:15:51.500
 Again, that's a malt that hasn't really

290
00:15:51.500 --> 00:15:54.200
 undergone its germination process

291
00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:58.200
 and it's, you know, the barley is steeped

292
00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:00.540
 and has a very, very short kind of like

293
00:16:00.540 --> 00:16:02.680
 germination time, if any at all.

294
00:16:02.680 --> 00:16:05.720
 And it's siphoned straight off into a roasting drum.

295
00:16:06.620 --> 00:16:10.460
 So you have like next to no enzyme activity

296
00:16:10.460 --> 00:16:13.120
 because the barley hasn't gone through that

297
00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:14.500
 kind of like germination process

298
00:16:14.500 --> 00:16:16.400
 to build all of those enzymes up

299
00:16:16.400 --> 00:16:18.700
 to make the sugars more accessible.

300
00:16:19.520 --> 00:16:22.820
 But you have this wonderful kind of, yeah,

301
00:16:23.900 --> 00:16:27.380
 the complexity of like just an unmodified barley

302
00:16:28.180 --> 00:16:30.320
 which has been roasted to develop like

303
00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:32.320
 just as the name says, like all those lovely

304
00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:35.260
 kind of like caramel nutty, you know,

305
00:16:35.400 --> 00:16:37.980
 virgin on very light chocolatey kind of notes.

306
00:16:38.680 --> 00:16:40.720
 Just like caramal is one of my

307
00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:42.520
 absolute favorite malts, to be honest.

308
00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:45.220
 I will happily just eat handfuls of it.

309
00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:47.400
 I have to pick it out of my teeth afterwards.

310
00:16:48.280 --> 00:16:50.740
 It was always my favorite one to brew with.

311
00:16:50.740 --> 00:16:52.020
 Make some flapjacks with it.

312
00:16:52.020 --> 00:16:52.980
 Yeah, yeah.

313
00:16:53.180 --> 00:16:54.380
 It's probably got the nicest,

314
00:16:54.640 --> 00:16:56.320
 like the nicest aroma, isn't it,

315
00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:57.140
 when you brew them with us?

316
00:16:57.160 --> 00:16:58.080
 Yeah, absolutely.

317
00:16:58.420 --> 00:16:58.860
 Sweet.

318
00:16:59.100 --> 00:17:00.400
 Yeah, you're only supposed to use it

319
00:17:00.400 --> 00:17:02.200
 in certain amounts though.

320
00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:05.140
 In most recipes, I would say

321
00:17:05.140 --> 00:17:07.540
 up to 10% or 20% of the grist.

322
00:17:08.040 --> 00:17:08.800
 Yeah, exactly.

323
00:17:09.079 --> 00:17:15.880
 I think that's partly because you, yeah,

324
00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:18.680
 you want to retain some kind of like

325
00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:20.900
 enzymatic activity to kind of do

326
00:17:20.900 --> 00:17:22.619
 all the conversion of starch

327
00:17:22.619 --> 00:17:24.079
 and all the residual sugars

328
00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:26.859
 that are left in the barley.

329
00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:28.560
 So you're kind of limited by that.

330
00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:30.940
 But also you're kind of like flavor-wise,

331
00:17:31.580 --> 00:17:33.640
 a lot of these molds can kind of

332
00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:35.200
 have a bit of a like off taste

333
00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:38.800
 when used in kind of huge proportions.

334
00:17:39.420 --> 00:17:41.420
 I'm sorry, is that something that you agree with?

335
00:17:41.760 --> 00:17:42.420
 Yeah, totally, man.

336
00:17:42.940 --> 00:17:44.080
 They're really strong on this.

337
00:17:44.540 --> 00:17:46.880
 So apart from like the fact that you need

338
00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:48.760
 the enzymatic activity,

339
00:17:49.020 --> 00:17:50.180
 you also need the extract.

340
00:17:50.260 --> 00:17:51.580
 So the more of that you use,

341
00:17:51.620 --> 00:17:52.920
 the less sort of extract

342
00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:54.120
 you're going to get to ferment with.

343
00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:56.480
 Aside from that,

344
00:17:56.660 --> 00:17:58.040
 it's like a little balancing act, isn't it?

345
00:17:58.040 --> 00:17:59.720
 Like if you think about it sort of cooking,

346
00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:02.100
 you only use garlic in a very small amount.

347
00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:05.200
 You'd only season a certain amount

348
00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:07.960
 and it's a similar sort of mindset

349
00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:09.240
 when you're putting your grits together.

350
00:18:10.360 --> 00:18:11.800
 You can get around it by using

351
00:18:11.800 --> 00:18:13.640
 lots of different sort of varieties of mold

352
00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:16.300
 to give complexity but not have to use

353
00:18:16.300 --> 00:18:17.220
 too much of it.

354
00:18:18.140 --> 00:18:20.100
 So during the mashing process and brewing,

355
00:18:20.280 --> 00:18:21.820
 can you describe what happens

356
00:18:21.820 --> 00:18:23.980
 when hot water interacts with

357
00:18:23.980 --> 00:18:24.820
 with the crushed malt grain?

358
00:18:25.080 --> 00:18:26.160
 Obviously, we've been speaking

359
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:27.340
 about the different types of grains.

360
00:18:27.620 --> 00:18:29.300
 What actually happens

361
00:18:29.300 --> 00:18:30.920
 when water interacts with that?

362
00:18:31.080 --> 00:18:31.560
 Yeah.

363
00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:35.180
 So I guess kind of the first thing

364
00:18:35.180 --> 00:18:37.160
 that happens is your malt,

365
00:18:37.540 --> 00:18:38.700
 the starch is...

366
00:18:38.700 --> 00:18:41.380
 Well, so malt is an important source

367
00:18:41.380 --> 00:18:43.820
 of one carbohydrate,

368
00:18:44.180 --> 00:18:45.740
 which is the thing that yeast

369
00:18:45.740 --> 00:18:46.940
 will turn into alcohol.

370
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:49.800
 The carbohydrate is kind of

371
00:18:49.800 --> 00:18:50.980
 in many different forms.

372
00:18:51.020 --> 00:18:52.140
 You have like dextrins,

373
00:18:52.180 --> 00:18:53.420
 which contribute to

374
00:18:53.860 --> 00:18:55.300
 the mouthfeel of your beer.

375
00:18:55.420 --> 00:18:56.720
 Like if you were to take

376
00:18:56.720 --> 00:18:57.840
 all of your carbohydrate

377
00:18:57.840 --> 00:18:59.660
 and just turn it straight into alcohol,

378
00:18:59.820 --> 00:19:01.600
 you'd be left with a really thin

379
00:19:01.600 --> 00:19:03.660
 kind of beer that just tastes very

380
00:19:03.660 --> 00:19:04.820
 like just boozy.

381
00:19:05.120 --> 00:19:06.360
 For some people, that's desirable.

382
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:08.560
 That's also kind of what distillers do,

383
00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:09.560
 to be fair.

384
00:19:10.080 --> 00:19:11.480
 But for a brewer,

385
00:19:11.540 --> 00:19:12.660
 that's not really ideal.

386
00:19:14.740 --> 00:19:16.360
 There are proteins that you extract

387
00:19:16.360 --> 00:19:17.300
 from the malt to...

388
00:19:18.540 --> 00:19:21.260
 One, to do the conversion of starch.

389
00:19:21.580 --> 00:19:23.860
 So that's kind of the enzyme activity.

390
00:19:24.560 --> 00:19:26.000
 Protein is really important

391
00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:27.780
 for yeast health as well

392
00:19:28.420 --> 00:19:30.360
 yeast requires a source of nitrogen

393
00:19:30.360 --> 00:19:32.080
 to grow and reproduce.

394
00:19:33.900 --> 00:19:35.460
 There's also all sorts of like

395
00:19:35.460 --> 00:19:37.600
 trace minerals in malt as well

396
00:19:37.600 --> 00:19:39.640
 that support the growth of yeast.

397
00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:42.340
 But in terms of what happens

398
00:19:42.340 --> 00:19:43.040
 in the mash tun,

399
00:19:43.080 --> 00:19:45.160
 when you mix water with malt,

400
00:19:45.580 --> 00:19:46.500
 first thing that happens

401
00:19:46.500 --> 00:19:48.360
 is your starch granules

402
00:19:48.360 --> 00:19:49.640
 begin to like swell

403
00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:51.020
 and go through this process

404
00:19:51.020 --> 00:19:52.420
 called gelatinization,

405
00:19:52.840 --> 00:19:53.660
 which is basically like...

406
00:19:53.660 --> 00:19:54.940
 Imagine starch is just like

407
00:19:54.940 --> 00:19:57.060
 a tight ball, basically.

408
00:19:57.060 --> 00:19:58.780
 At mash temperature,

409
00:19:58.800 --> 00:20:01.260
 that ball kind of just like relaxes out.

410
00:20:01.780 --> 00:20:02.940
 So the kind of...

411
00:20:02.940 --> 00:20:04.840
 The starch kind of unwinds

412
00:20:04.840 --> 00:20:07.620
 and becomes accessible to enzymes.

413
00:20:08.920 --> 00:20:11.680
 So the main enzymes

414
00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:15.500
 that we look for in malt

415
00:20:15.500 --> 00:20:19.600
 are kind of alpha and beta amylase,

416
00:20:19.620 --> 00:20:21.240
 which kind of go along

417
00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:25.160
 and chop up starch into maltose,

418
00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:29.560
 which is kind of the main sugar

419
00:20:29.560 --> 00:20:31.020
 that originates from malt.

420
00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:33.100
 But it will also chop it

421
00:20:33.100 --> 00:20:33.920
 into longer chains

422
00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:36.500
 like kind of maltotriose, maltopentose.

423
00:20:36.740 --> 00:20:39.560
 Again, all of these are kind of...

424
00:20:39.560 --> 00:20:42.220
 Yeast can utilize to turn into alcohol.

425
00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:45.280
 But the longer chain sugars

426
00:20:45.280 --> 00:20:46.560
 that are chopped up,

427
00:20:46.680 --> 00:20:48.380
 those are what we call dextrins,

428
00:20:48.420 --> 00:20:49.480
 which as I was saying before

429
00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:52.120
 kind of contribute to the body of the beer.

430
00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:55.500
 Yeah, starch gelatinization

431
00:20:55.500 --> 00:20:56.900
 and conversion

432
00:20:57.920 --> 00:20:59.440
 is one of the main things

433
00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:01.100
 that goes on in the mash tun.

434
00:21:01.420 --> 00:21:03.060
 Obviously, brewers usually check

435
00:21:03.060 --> 00:21:04.600
 whether that process is complete

436
00:21:04.600 --> 00:21:07.160
 by adding a drop of iodine

437
00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:09.160
 to a little spoonful of the mash.

438
00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:10.880
 If you see it go

439
00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:12.620
 a kind of blue blackish color,

440
00:21:12.740 --> 00:21:13.280
 then you know

441
00:21:13.280 --> 00:21:14.520
 there's still starch present.

442
00:21:15.020 --> 00:21:17.220
 So you need to see that process

443
00:21:17.220 --> 00:21:18.260
 kind of continue on.

444
00:21:19.020 --> 00:21:23.140
 With like most malts in the UK now,

445
00:21:23.300 --> 00:21:24.400
 I'd say especially for

446
00:21:25.080 --> 00:21:27.440
 you know kind of the craft market

447
00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:29.540
 are generally well modified.

448
00:21:30.340 --> 00:21:32.740
 So that process is usually quite quick.

449
00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:35.280
 It's usually kind of 30.

450
00:21:35.600 --> 00:21:37.280
 I've seen as quick as 15,

451
00:21:37.360 --> 00:21:40.100
 but people like to leave it

452
00:21:40.100 --> 00:21:40.920
 a little bit longer

453
00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:41.880
 because you're extracting

454
00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:43.280
 loads of other things as well.

455
00:21:43.740 --> 00:21:46.340
 Yeah, I think 60 minutes is a standard

456
00:21:47.020 --> 00:21:48.540
 mashing in for most brewers.

457
00:21:49.260 --> 00:21:50.140
 Yeah, but it's definitely something

458
00:21:50.140 --> 00:21:52.160
 I'd recommend to a brewer is like

459
00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:54.020
 you know have a look at

460
00:21:54.020 --> 00:21:55.520
 you know for your equipment

461
00:21:55.520 --> 00:21:56.400
 and your malt

462
00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:57.740
 and your mash profile.

463
00:21:57.920 --> 00:21:59.060
 Have a think about how

464
00:21:59.620 --> 00:22:01.520
 quickly your conversion is.

465
00:22:02.020 --> 00:22:02.580
 You know there's nothing

466
00:22:02.580 --> 00:22:03.480
 because you can cut down

467
00:22:04.040 --> 00:22:06.500
 time but also energy consumption as well.

468
00:22:07.740 --> 00:22:08.620
 Yeah, yeah depending.

469
00:22:08.820 --> 00:22:11.160
 I mean so for a craft customer

470
00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:12.980
 I guess their mash tun

471
00:22:12.980 --> 00:22:14.880
 is usually you know

472
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:17.840
 it doesn't have much heating to it.

473
00:22:19.020 --> 00:22:21.460
 So you know you've kind of done

474
00:22:21.460 --> 00:22:22.820
 the energy consumption already

475
00:22:22.820 --> 00:22:24.940
 of just mixing the hot water

476
00:22:24.940 --> 00:22:26.720
 which you've already heated with malt.

477
00:22:28.040 --> 00:22:31.100
 But yeah for the big commercial breweries

478
00:22:31.100 --> 00:22:32.080
 where you know they'll have

479
00:22:32.080 --> 00:22:34.700
 steam jacketed mash vessels.

480
00:22:36.580 --> 00:22:38.060
 Yeah, it can definitely you know

481
00:22:38.060 --> 00:22:40.060
 and also time is a valuable thing

482
00:22:40.060 --> 00:22:40.920
 for a business.

483
00:22:41.980 --> 00:22:44.600
 Yeah, so obviously I have a grandfather

484
00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:46.880
 it's always heating during the mash

485
00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:48.640
 because it maintains the

486
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:50.120
 you know your temperature.

487
00:22:50.380 --> 00:22:50.980
 Yeah definitely.

488
00:22:51.620 --> 00:22:53.660
 So if I was to check it

489
00:22:53.660 --> 00:22:54.900
 30 minutes in to make sure

490
00:22:54.900 --> 00:22:56.340
 it's all done then I could

491
00:22:56.340 --> 00:22:57.840
 probably cut my mashing in

492
00:22:57.840 --> 00:22:59.400
 to 30 minutes.

493
00:22:59.820 --> 00:23:01.100
 Because it uses up a lot of electricity.

494
00:23:01.760 --> 00:23:03.360
 No exactly yeah and that's

495
00:23:03.360 --> 00:23:04.480
 one of the things I remember

496
00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:05.440
 from home brewing as well

497
00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:07.000
 is like the grandfather does

498
00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:10.060
 yeah it does just eat energy basically.

499
00:23:11.260 --> 00:23:12.000
 Yeah it certainly does.

500
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:13.880
 Yeah look at my electricity bill

501
00:23:13.880 --> 00:23:14.820
 after I've been brewing

502
00:23:14.820 --> 00:23:16.420
 and I'm like what is going on.

503
00:23:16.540 --> 00:23:17.320
 It's crazy isn't it?

504
00:23:17.460 --> 00:23:18.180
 It's like literally boiling

505
00:23:18.180 --> 00:23:19.340
 the kettle for five hours.

506
00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:19.820
 Yeah no.

507
00:23:19.860 --> 00:23:21.380
 We all know how much energy

508
00:23:21.380 --> 00:23:22.800
 kettle uses electricity wise.

509
00:23:24.360 --> 00:23:25.820
 I think it's time isn't it

510
00:23:25.820 --> 00:23:27.040
 for like the smaller brewers

511
00:23:27.040 --> 00:23:28.400
 if you can knock half an hour

512
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:29.100
 off your brew day.

513
00:23:29.320 --> 00:23:29.700
 Yeah.

514
00:23:29.700 --> 00:23:30.920
 Like make the difference between

515
00:23:31.620 --> 00:23:32.860
 I don't know finishing at five

516
00:23:32.860 --> 00:23:34.100
 or finishing at half four in the day

517
00:23:34.100 --> 00:23:35.360
 and that's I don't know

518
00:23:35.360 --> 00:23:36.520
 if you brew times a week

519
00:23:36.520 --> 00:23:37.980
 that's probably a lot scarier than that.

520
00:23:38.600 --> 00:23:40.280
 Yeah saving electricity bills.

521
00:23:40.740 --> 00:23:43.800
 Yeah exactly and I think it

522
00:23:43.800 --> 00:23:45.640
 is definitely worth having a look.

523
00:23:45.980 --> 00:23:48.460
 You know there is a you know 60 minutes

524
00:23:48.460 --> 00:23:51.120
 is just the rationale for mashing

525
00:23:51.120 --> 00:23:54.340
 for some reason I don't know why.

526
00:23:54.580 --> 00:23:55.700
 It's booms from bristles isn't it.

527
00:23:56.260 --> 00:23:57.840
 Like it's become the norm isn't it.

528
00:23:58.100 --> 00:23:59.540
 Like you mash 60 minutes that's it

529
00:23:59.540 --> 00:24:02.220
 and then 10 minute mash out at 75.

530
00:24:02.420 --> 00:24:03.820
 Yeah exactly and I think

531
00:24:03.820 --> 00:24:04.980
 that's the thing is just like

532
00:24:04.980 --> 00:24:07.440
 it's easy to take a scoopful of mash

533
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:09.240
 and just test it with some iodine

534
00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:10.860
 and you know as soon as it's done

535
00:24:10.860 --> 00:24:13.100
 you know it's you know it's ready to go

536
00:24:13.100 --> 00:24:13.720
 basically.

537
00:24:13.900 --> 00:24:16.060
 So if it goes a dark blue blackish colour

538
00:24:16.060 --> 00:24:17.940
 that means that there's still some starch.

539
00:24:18.140 --> 00:24:19.640
 Exactly there's still some more starch

540
00:24:19.640 --> 00:24:20.460
 that needs converted

541
00:24:20.460 --> 00:24:22.060
 and you need to leave it a bit longer.

542
00:24:22.120 --> 00:24:22.900
 You need to leave it a bit longer.

543
00:24:22.900 --> 00:24:23.980
 So what colour would it go

544
00:24:23.980 --> 00:24:25.140
 if it's all completed.

545
00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:28.080
 So iodine is kind of like a yellowy colour

546
00:24:28.520 --> 00:24:31.820
 so it's quite similar to what as it is.

547
00:24:31.900 --> 00:24:33.500
 So it doesn't really

548
00:24:33.500 --> 00:24:34.680
 particularly change colour.

549
00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:37.060
 It's kind of a bit kind of I don't know

550
00:24:37.060 --> 00:24:39.380
 bit like it looks a bit kind of brown

551
00:24:39.380 --> 00:24:43.560
 I guess but the blue kind of blacky colour

552
00:24:43.560 --> 00:24:45.700
 is kind of like an ink almost

553
00:24:45.700 --> 00:24:48.360
 so it's very like a distinct colour.

554
00:24:49.760 --> 00:24:51.960
 Obviously for you know home brewers

555
00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:53.200
 getting hold of iodine

556
00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:54.300
 isn't the easiest thing.

557
00:24:55.020 --> 00:24:57.200
 Let's move on to another question

558
00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:59.760
 if you could give a few examples

559
00:25:00.230 --> 00:25:01.940
 a difference between some you know

560
00:25:01.940 --> 00:25:04.760
 base malts specialty malts

561
00:25:04.760 --> 00:25:06.560
 and adjuncts and roasted malts.

562
00:25:06.780 --> 00:25:08.400
 What's the difference between them?

563
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:11.160
 Yeah so I would think most brewers

564
00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:13.880
 are probably using like a generic

565
00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:15.320
 pale ale malt for example

566
00:25:15.320 --> 00:25:17.080
 if they're making a beer

567
00:25:18.020 --> 00:25:19.420
 that would normally come in

568
00:25:19.420 --> 00:25:20.760
 a couple of different variants.

569
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:23.260
 So the variant in this way

570
00:25:23.260 --> 00:25:23.980
 is normally colour.

571
00:25:24.040 --> 00:25:26.580
 So you would have like a standard pale malt

572
00:25:26.580 --> 00:25:28.420
 maybe like four EBC or something

573
00:25:28.420 --> 00:25:30.200
 five six EBC

574
00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:31.780
 and then you'd have an extra pale

575
00:25:31.780 --> 00:25:33.620
 and that would depend on

576
00:25:33.620 --> 00:25:34.780
 what beer you're brewing.

577
00:25:35.300 --> 00:25:36.880
 There's a slight difference in flavour

578
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:39.120
 so generally the darker the malt

579
00:25:39.120 --> 00:25:40.100
 the stronger the flavour

580
00:25:40.100 --> 00:25:42.300
 the lighter the malt the sort of

581
00:25:43.060 --> 00:25:43.760
 malt biscotti.

582
00:25:44.200 --> 00:25:45.160
 Yeah the more so

583
00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:46.040
 it's on the lighter end

584
00:25:46.040 --> 00:25:46.980
 of the flavour spectrum.

585
00:25:47.860 --> 00:25:50.260
 So most brewers are using an ale malt

586
00:25:50.260 --> 00:25:52.180
 of either pale or extra pale.

587
00:25:53.100 --> 00:25:55.020
 Some brewers still use a marasota

588
00:25:55.520 --> 00:25:57.500
 not a huge difference with marasota

589
00:25:57.500 --> 00:25:58.920
 so flavour wise

590
00:25:58.920 --> 00:26:00.320
 it's perhaps a little bit stronger

591
00:26:01.840 --> 00:26:02.820
 but colour wise

592
00:26:02.820 --> 00:26:04.260
 you will be getting the same sort of colour

593
00:26:04.260 --> 00:26:06.700
 as a normal ale base malt

594
00:26:08.120 --> 00:26:09.560
 marasota people like to use it

595
00:26:09.560 --> 00:26:10.720
 because of the sort of

596
00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:11.480
 because of the name

597
00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:13.940
 the customers can relate to marasota

598
00:26:13.940 --> 00:26:16.000
 but it's becoming like

599
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:18.080
 increasingly less popular with brewers

600
00:26:18.080 --> 00:26:20.400
 because it's not grown as much

601
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:23.200
 so it's also a little bit harder to grow

602
00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:24.520
 and it's a little bit harder to malt

603
00:26:24.520 --> 00:26:26.620
 so there's like a price premium

604
00:26:26.620 --> 00:26:27.300
 on marasota.

605
00:26:27.760 --> 00:26:29.400
 So I think any brewer that's ever bought

606
00:26:29.400 --> 00:26:31.980
 it will realize the premium sometimes

607
00:26:31.980 --> 00:26:33.540
 doesn't necessarily outweigh

608
00:26:33.540 --> 00:26:34.560
 the benefits of it.

609
00:26:35.280 --> 00:26:36.620
 Yeah the flavour they're going to get.

610
00:26:36.620 --> 00:26:39.100
 What were customers kind of using to

611
00:26:39.900 --> 00:26:42.720
 instead of marasota what they're buying?

612
00:26:44.100 --> 00:26:45.200
 So variety wise

613
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:47.040
 our main variety for base malts

614
00:26:47.040 --> 00:26:48.380
 is a variety called planes

615
00:26:49.300 --> 00:26:51.440
 and the variety has less of an impact

616
00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:53.500
 on the brewer at the end of this.

617
00:26:54.280 --> 00:26:55.920
 There's an approved variety list

618
00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:57.780
 for farmers to grow

619
00:26:58.700 --> 00:27:01.560
 for use in malting and in brewing

620
00:27:01.560 --> 00:27:02.660
 and in distilling

621
00:27:02.660 --> 00:27:04.200
 and that list's quite small

622
00:27:04.200 --> 00:27:05.540
 there's maybe four or five varieties

623
00:27:05.540 --> 00:27:07.420
 on that that are preferred by everybody

624
00:27:07.420 --> 00:27:08.860
 but that's just because it gives goods

625
00:27:08.860 --> 00:27:10.440
 nitrogen, it gives good extracts

626
00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:11.020
 gives goods

627
00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:13.520
 everything that the malster wants

628
00:27:13.520 --> 00:27:14.680
 that the brewer wants

629
00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:18.480
 so not a huge sort of difference really.

630
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:20.920
 And it's a good the varieties

631
00:27:20.920 --> 00:27:22.680
 that we use typically

632
00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:23.900
 it's as Simon said

633
00:27:23.900 --> 00:27:24.740
 it's good for brewers

634
00:27:24.740 --> 00:27:26.880
 and good for us as maltsters

635
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:29.260
 but also it's good for farmers as well

636
00:27:29.260 --> 00:27:31.780
 because the yields are a bit higher

637
00:27:31.780 --> 00:27:34.240
 that's certainly the big kind of negative

638
00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:36.340
 otter is just it

639
00:27:36.340 --> 00:27:38.720
 the yield is very low

640
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:43.040
 compared to yeah planet or craft

641
00:27:43.040 --> 00:27:45.780
 or laureate is the other really big one

642
00:27:45.780 --> 00:27:47.340
 that we supply.

643
00:27:48.360 --> 00:27:50.560
 So you know it's kind of an interesting one

644
00:27:50.560 --> 00:27:52.240
 for us as maltsters in the middle

645
00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:54.040
 kind of juggling relationships

646
00:27:54.040 --> 00:27:56.320
 between farmers and brewers

647
00:27:56.320 --> 00:27:58.020
 and try to keep kind of everyone

648
00:27:58.020 --> 00:27:59.240
 happy along the way

649
00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:03.640
 which I know that we certainly struggle

650
00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:04.400
 with at times.

651
00:28:04.720 --> 00:28:06.440
 I think every malster does

652
00:28:06.440 --> 00:28:08.720
 it's because everyone wants everything

653
00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:10.120
 but you know like I said

654
00:28:10.120 --> 00:28:11.220
 you have to balance

655
00:28:11.220 --> 00:28:13.480
 and especially when you have

656
00:28:13.480 --> 00:28:14.680
 challenging harvests

657
00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:15.670
 like we've just had

658
00:28:16.620 --> 00:28:17.820
 brewers still want

659
00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:19.980
 the best that they can get

660
00:28:19.980 --> 00:28:21.580
 and we will give them

661
00:28:21.580 --> 00:28:23.100
 the best that they can get

662
00:28:23.100 --> 00:28:24.920
 but it's definitely more challenging

663
00:28:24.920 --> 00:28:26.140
 for us and it certainly

664
00:28:26.140 --> 00:28:27.560
 has been quite painful

665
00:28:27.560 --> 00:28:28.960
 for farmers this year.

666
00:28:29.260 --> 00:28:31.060
 Yeah at least to answer our next question

667
00:28:31.060 --> 00:28:32.880
 which is like how the productions

668
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:34.320
 barley production has been recently

669
00:28:34.320 --> 00:28:36.140
 is there weather patterns

670
00:28:36.140 --> 00:28:37.220
 or farming conditions

671
00:28:37.220 --> 00:28:38.460
 made things a bit more challenging

672
00:28:38.460 --> 00:28:38.880
 for them?

673
00:28:39.100 --> 00:28:45.000
 Yeah I mean so kind of 2024 into 2025

674
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:47.400
 it was kind of like a perfect storm

675
00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:49.720
 for barley farmers

676
00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:51.740
 for malting barley.

677
00:28:52.080 --> 00:28:56.140
 Basically you have two seasons for barley

678
00:28:56.140 --> 00:28:57.880
 you can have winter barley

679
00:28:57.880 --> 00:28:59.800
 which is planted

680
00:28:59.800 --> 00:29:02.040
 as the name suggests in the winter

681
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:04.980
 and you have spring barley.

682
00:29:05.620 --> 00:29:08.500
 We take both types

683
00:29:09.520 --> 00:29:12.800
 primarily brewing is mostly spring barley

684
00:29:14.230 --> 00:29:17.720
 but you can request winter barley as well

685
00:29:18.090 --> 00:29:20.680
 and there are some benefits to it

686
00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:22.980
 but there are downsides as well.

687
00:29:23.180 --> 00:29:28.140
 So the winter barley in late 2024

688
00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:32.080
 suffered like a disproportionate amount of rain

689
00:29:32.080 --> 00:29:36.360
 basically which kind of didn't set

690
00:29:36.360 --> 00:29:39.500
 the crop off quite right let's say.

691
00:29:39.700 --> 00:29:40.500
 It's kind of like again

692
00:29:40.500 --> 00:29:42.800
 we're in the business of dealing with plants

693
00:29:42.800 --> 00:29:44.760
 so you know imagine kind of drowning

694
00:29:44.760 --> 00:29:45.580
 your house plant.

695
00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:51.560
 So that kind of already set the harvest

696
00:29:51.560 --> 00:29:54.900
 for 2025 of the winter crop just off wrong.

697
00:29:55.140 --> 00:29:56.700
 So when you have too much rain

698
00:29:56.700 --> 00:29:58.920
 farmers are applying nitrogen

699
00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:01.260
 and bearing in mind we want

700
00:30:01.260 --> 00:30:04.200
 quite a low specification of nitrogen

701
00:30:04.860 --> 00:30:06.620
 just because the more nitrogen you have

702
00:30:06.620 --> 00:30:08.940
 the less carbohydrate you'll have

703
00:30:08.940 --> 00:30:11.480
 and that means worse extract.

704
00:30:11.780 --> 00:30:13.080
 It also means like problems

705
00:30:13.080 --> 00:30:15.200
 with like haze potentially in the final malt.

706
00:30:16.900 --> 00:30:18.420
 But yeah so the winter crop

707
00:30:18.420 --> 00:30:20.620
 kind of didn't get off very well

708
00:30:21.340 --> 00:30:23.500
 and then kind of spring rolls around

709
00:30:23.500 --> 00:30:26.520
 the spring crop went into the ground

710
00:30:26.520 --> 00:30:28.060
 well absolutely fine you know

711
00:30:28.060 --> 00:30:29.600
 that was the right amount of moisture

712
00:30:29.600 --> 00:30:31.080
 for it to like go in

713
00:30:31.780 --> 00:30:33.040
 but then the problem was

714
00:30:33.040 --> 00:30:35.200
 we had a really really dry summer.

715
00:30:36.260 --> 00:30:38.620
 Yeah so again you know.

716
00:30:39.040 --> 00:30:39.960
 Sorry Psycho.

717
00:30:40.340 --> 00:30:41.200
 Long wasn't it?

718
00:30:41.320 --> 00:30:44.460
 Yeah exactly and you know

719
00:30:44.460 --> 00:30:46.520
 because that it was so dry

720
00:30:48.320 --> 00:30:50.320
 the barley didn't quite get

721
00:30:50.320 --> 00:30:51.660
 the chance to like develop

722
00:30:51.660 --> 00:30:53.460
 in the way that we would want it to.

723
00:30:54.020 --> 00:30:57.040
 So you know I believe kernel size

724
00:30:57.040 --> 00:30:59.220
 is a lot smaller this year

725
00:30:59.220 --> 00:31:00.720
 and that's a challenge

726
00:31:01.880 --> 00:31:04.680
 one for farmers to actually harvest

727
00:31:05.220 --> 00:31:06.620
 the grain because you know

728
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:09.760
 the harvesters are set up

729
00:31:09.760 --> 00:31:13.000
 with a certain kind of kernel size in mind

730
00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:14.600
 and anything smaller than it

731
00:31:14.600 --> 00:31:16.140
 will just fall on the floor.

732
00:31:17.140 --> 00:31:18.640
 The same with our maltings

733
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:21.240
 you know our screens are set at certain sizes

734
00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:22.980
 and it's challenging to change

735
00:31:22.980 --> 00:31:24.700
 all of that kind of equipment

736
00:31:24.700 --> 00:31:27.040
 for like a smaller kernel size.

737
00:31:27.640 --> 00:31:29.620
 Again it translates all the way

738
00:31:29.620 --> 00:31:30.700
 through to the malt where

739
00:31:30.700 --> 00:31:32.340
 if you have a smaller kernel size

740
00:31:32.340 --> 00:31:34.720
 and your kernel size.

741
00:31:35.080 --> 00:31:35.280
 Less starch.

742
00:31:35.560 --> 00:31:37.440
 Well not necessarily less starch

743
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:40.380
 because you know it's a smaller kernel

744
00:31:40.380 --> 00:31:41.480
 so it weighs less

745
00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:43.560
 but it's got the same amount of starch

746
00:31:43.560 --> 00:31:44.380
 like jackfruits.

747
00:31:44.500 --> 00:31:45.980
 So there's the same amount of starch

748
00:31:45.980 --> 00:31:46.680
 in a kilo.

749
00:31:46.940 --> 00:31:47.960
 The problem is really

750
00:31:47.960 --> 00:31:50.700
 when you're trying to mill your malt.

751
00:31:50.980 --> 00:31:52.780
 So if you've set your mill gap

752
00:31:52.780 --> 00:31:55.360
 for a grain size of you know

753
00:31:56.300 --> 00:31:58.740
 2.8 millimeters for example.

754
00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:00.520
 If you have a kernel that comes along

755
00:32:00.520 --> 00:32:03.120
 and it's 2.2 it might go straight through.

756
00:32:03.700 --> 00:32:06.560
 Exactly and then the real challenge is

757
00:32:06.560 --> 00:32:09.240
 you know how do you adapt to that

758
00:32:09.240 --> 00:32:12.500
 especially for the big industrial customers

759
00:32:12.500 --> 00:32:14.640
 where again they have the machinery

760
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:17.680
 designed for a certain kernel size

761
00:32:18.360 --> 00:32:20.140
 and anything smaller than it

762
00:32:20.140 --> 00:32:22.760
 will just end up in their kind of waste stream

763
00:32:22.780 --> 00:32:24.940
 which is not good for them.

764
00:32:24.940 --> 00:32:26.800
 It's a challenge for us

765
00:32:27.460 --> 00:32:30.400
 but you know we inherit that challenge

766
00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:32.700
 from the farmers

767
00:32:32.700 --> 00:32:35.740
 and it's you know it's not just us

768
00:32:35.740 --> 00:32:37.160
 that has to deal with that challenge

769
00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:39.080
 that's the malting industry in general.

770
00:32:39.300 --> 00:32:41.200
 So yeah I would say 2025

771
00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:44.660
 has definitely been a very challenging harvest

772
00:32:44.660 --> 00:32:47.020
 for you know farmers, molsters

773
00:32:47.020 --> 00:32:48.240
 and now kind of brewers

774
00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:50.240
 are beginning to see the challenges

775
00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:52.240
 that we've been facing as well.

776
00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:53.720
 Yeah for sure yeah.

777
00:32:54.080 --> 00:32:55.400
 Do you work closely with farmers

778
00:32:55.400 --> 00:32:57.700
 to keep everything as consistent as possible?

779
00:32:57.860 --> 00:32:58.740
 Yeah absolutely.

780
00:32:58.980 --> 00:33:02.380
 So we have a dedicated team in Munton's

781
00:33:02.380 --> 00:33:03.460
 that deals with

782
00:33:03.460 --> 00:33:05.700
 we call them lovingly the grain team.

783
00:33:06.580 --> 00:33:09.500
 So yeah they work very closely

784
00:33:09.500 --> 00:33:13.560
 with our grain merchants and our farmers

785
00:33:14.380 --> 00:33:17.000
 just so we can get a sense of

786
00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:19.720
 you know what's the market price for barley.

787
00:33:19.880 --> 00:33:21.340
 So if it's going down

788
00:33:21.340 --> 00:33:24.000
 that's great for us and great for brewers as well

789
00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:25.920
 because the price of the malt will go down.

790
00:33:26.300 --> 00:33:27.760
 We also get a bit of a heads up

791
00:33:27.760 --> 00:33:30.360
 as to you know what's happening

792
00:33:30.940 --> 00:33:32.920
 as the farming season kind of like continues

793
00:33:32.920 --> 00:33:35.200
 our yields potentially looking

794
00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:38.820
 you know if there's a massive shortage of barley

795
00:33:38.820 --> 00:33:40.780
 if there was a crop failure for example

796
00:33:40.780 --> 00:33:42.180
 we're running around looking at

797
00:33:42.180 --> 00:33:44.460
 how we're going to make up that shortfall

798
00:33:44.460 --> 00:33:45.720
 and likewise you know

799
00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:49.160
 if there's a shortage in barley for feed as well

800
00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:50.940
 that obviously has an impact on

801
00:33:51.780 --> 00:33:54.120
 the market for malting barley as well.

802
00:33:54.200 --> 00:33:57.360
 So we have a whole team dedicated to it at Munton's.

803
00:33:57.760 --> 00:34:00.580
 I think it's certainly a challenge for them

804
00:34:00.580 --> 00:34:03.500
 keeping a close relationship with farmers and merchants

805
00:34:03.500 --> 00:34:06.200
 and kind of giving the guys in the maltings

806
00:34:06.200 --> 00:34:07.760
 like a heads up as to

807
00:34:07.760 --> 00:34:09.780
 you know what's going to happen basically.

808
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:13.739
 So yeah we definitely work very very close

809
00:34:13.739 --> 00:34:15.800
 with our grain merchants and farmers.

810
00:34:16.340 --> 00:34:17.580
 Yeah and also one thing

811
00:34:17.580 --> 00:34:20.500
 that you work very closely with is your sustainability.

812
00:34:21.420 --> 00:34:22.500
 Tell us a bit more about

813
00:34:22.500 --> 00:34:24.260
 some of the big actions you've taken

814
00:34:24.260 --> 00:34:27.179
 to make malting more environmentally friendly

815
00:34:27.179 --> 00:34:27.920
 and stuff like that.

816
00:34:27.940 --> 00:34:34.580
 Yeah so we are always setting ourselves goals

817
00:34:35.100 --> 00:34:37.040
 to kind of improve ourselves.

818
00:34:37.080 --> 00:34:39.360
 So a big one for us is we've set

819
00:34:40.480 --> 00:34:46.320
 a science-based target initiative goal basically

820
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:51.780
 aiming to be I believe it's carbon neutral

821
00:34:51.780 --> 00:34:56.040
 on our electricity by 2035

822
00:34:56.040 --> 00:34:58.540
 and I believe that covers all of our sites.

823
00:34:59.300 --> 00:35:01.980
 So Stowe Market, Bridlington by the top.

824
00:35:02.260 --> 00:35:04.260
 We've also got a plant in Thailand

825
00:35:04.260 --> 00:35:06.700
 that does malted ingredients as well.

826
00:35:07.540 --> 00:35:11.180
 So you know our challenge for that is global

827
00:35:12.140 --> 00:35:16.040
 and you know yeah so that's a really good challenge

828
00:35:16.040 --> 00:35:19.660
 to have we like I mentioned before

829
00:35:19.660 --> 00:35:23.160
 you know we've got anaerobic digesters on our site

830
00:35:23.160 --> 00:35:24.360
 which take our wastewater

831
00:35:24.360 --> 00:35:26.640
 and turn them into something useful

832
00:35:27.160 --> 00:35:30.300
 a form of biogas and then also kind of a liquid slurry

833
00:35:30.300 --> 00:35:31.820
 that you can use as a fertilizer.

834
00:35:34.020 --> 00:35:37.860
 We've got biomass boilers across all of our sites

835
00:35:37.860 --> 00:35:41.740
 that provide steam for heating processes

836
00:35:42.680 --> 00:35:45.560
 that is produced from like wood chips basically

837
00:35:45.560 --> 00:35:47.240
 and forestry byproducts.

838
00:35:47.620 --> 00:35:50.980
 So you know the idea is that is very very low carbon

839
00:35:50.980 --> 00:35:54.240
 because you know wood was grown from CO2

840
00:35:54.240 --> 00:35:56.120
 that was in the atmosphere originally.

841
00:35:56.240 --> 00:35:58.560
 So you're kind of having a closed loop

842
00:35:58.560 --> 00:36:02.200
 basically of CO2 minus all the transport and everything

843
00:36:03.500 --> 00:36:05.980
 and you know it's a byproduct of forestry

844
00:36:05.980 --> 00:36:07.920
 so that it was going to get created anyway.

845
00:36:08.560 --> 00:36:12.780
 So yeah so that's some of the kind of stuff

846
00:36:12.780 --> 00:36:13.880
 that we've been working on.

847
00:36:14.700 --> 00:36:18.280
 And we're continuously looking at how we can improve

848
00:36:18.280 --> 00:36:19.880
 like our malting process

849
00:36:20.440 --> 00:36:22.660
 and a big thing that we've been working on as well

850
00:36:22.660 --> 00:36:26.240
 is like getting our kilns to run more efficiently

851
00:36:26.240 --> 00:36:28.960
 because you know they consume a massive amount of energy

852
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:30.400
 and kind of heating the air

853
00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:32.820
 that gets blown into the kind of wet malt

854
00:36:32.820 --> 00:36:34.640
 and that all of that moisture

855
00:36:34.640 --> 00:36:37.600
 just kind of gets blown out of a chimney basically.

856
00:36:38.720 --> 00:36:40.780
 So you lose an incredible amount of heat

857
00:36:40.780 --> 00:36:42.060
 so we've been looking at you know

858
00:36:42.060 --> 00:36:44.420
 how we can heat more efficiently.

859
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:47.220
 Can we potentially recycle some of that heat?

860
00:36:47.420 --> 00:36:50.980
 You know we've been looking at yeah improving our processes

861
00:36:50.980 --> 00:36:54.200
 because every time every little incremental change you make

862
00:36:54.200 --> 00:36:56.540
 and you know if you can you know say

863
00:36:56.540 --> 00:37:00.560
 as we were saying earlier like we are a malt extract factory

864
00:37:00.560 --> 00:37:02.720
 as well so we do that mashing process.

865
00:37:02.740 --> 00:37:06.100
 So if we can do it quicker and use less steam

866
00:37:06.100 --> 00:37:08.640
 and you know produce more with less

867
00:37:08.640 --> 00:37:12.500
 that has a great impact on our sustainability as well.

868
00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:15.640
 You know much like other brewers

869
00:37:15.640 --> 00:37:19.060
 our Spangrain goes to feed as well.

870
00:37:19.700 --> 00:37:23.800
 We're a really big supplier of a company called Dynie.

871
00:37:24.320 --> 00:37:26.260
 We're one of their biggest suppliers

872
00:37:26.260 --> 00:37:29.320
 just because we have a very consistent output

873
00:37:29.320 --> 00:37:31.480
 of our malt extract factory.

874
00:37:32.360 --> 00:37:34.260
 We're working really closely with them

875
00:37:34.260 --> 00:37:37.920
 on seeing if there's anything more sustainable

876
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:39.600
 we can do with our Spangrain.

877
00:37:39.960 --> 00:37:42.640
 Like you know could it be turned into a food product

878
00:37:42.640 --> 00:37:45.800
 for example and not just you know

879
00:37:45.800 --> 00:37:48.460
 for human consumption rather than to cattle.

880
00:37:48.640 --> 00:37:52.840
 So that's a really great thing for like food security

881
00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:55.480
 and you know could it become a fuel for example.

882
00:37:55.980 --> 00:37:59.400
 So it's you know we've got our yeah

883
00:37:59.400 --> 00:38:01.040
 we're looking into lots of different things

884
00:38:01.040 --> 00:38:05.620
 and yeah it is a challenge but it's a challenge

885
00:38:05.620 --> 00:38:07.700
 that everyone needs to be thinking about

886
00:38:07.700 --> 00:38:10.540
 doing their bit on which we're certainly proud

887
00:38:10.540 --> 00:38:13.120
 to say we are doing our bit.

888
00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:17.540
 And you know we've got credentials from Ecovardis

889
00:38:17.540 --> 00:38:21.140
 that show we're in the top 5% of companies globally

890
00:38:21.140 --> 00:38:23.360
 when it comes to sustainability

891
00:38:24.100 --> 00:38:26.820
 and we're pushing to be in the top 1%.

892
00:38:26.820 --> 00:38:31.040
 So we've got that attitude of good is good

893
00:38:31.040 --> 00:38:33.440
 but we want to be great and we want to be the best.

894
00:38:34.080 --> 00:38:35.300
 Yeah that sounds really good.

895
00:38:35.300 --> 00:38:37.880
 What does sustainability growing barley mean

896
00:38:37.880 --> 00:38:39.780
 in practical terms for you guys?

897
00:38:40.540 --> 00:38:44.480
 So we've got a couple of different systems

898
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:46.040
 that we work with.

899
00:38:46.760 --> 00:38:48.580
 So I guess you can look at sustainability

900
00:38:48.580 --> 00:38:51.540
 in terms of like business sustainability.

901
00:38:52.240 --> 00:38:54.220
 So we want to make sure that farmers

902
00:38:54.220 --> 00:38:57.180
 are getting a fair price for their barley.

903
00:38:58.640 --> 00:39:02.540
 We have been working a lot with kind of regenerative

904
00:39:02.540 --> 00:39:05.940
 agriculture systems so that means kind of systems

905
00:39:05.940 --> 00:39:08.820
 where you're keeping soil health high

906
00:39:09.510 --> 00:39:13.420
 so you're extending kind of you know getting past

907
00:39:13.420 --> 00:39:16.580
 that idea of you know we have 40 harvests left

908
00:39:16.580 --> 00:39:19.480
 and we're extending that kind of thing.

909
00:39:20.040 --> 00:39:21.620
 So keeping the goodness in the soil

910
00:39:21.620 --> 00:39:23.980
 which is great as well because you get less

911
00:39:23.980 --> 00:39:26.720
 runoff of fields and less river pollution

912
00:39:26.720 --> 00:39:29.120
 which is a big challenge in agriculture.

913
00:39:30.620 --> 00:39:34.840
 We also as part of this regenerative agriculture system

914
00:39:34.840 --> 00:39:39.360
 you use less pesticide and less fertilizer as well

915
00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:43.540
 both of which have these kind of sustainability challenges

916
00:39:44.080 --> 00:39:47.260
 and just are quite damaging to the environment generally.

917
00:39:48.140 --> 00:39:50.800
 So we've been working very closely with yeah

918
00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:54.180
 groups of farmers on these regenerative agriculture products.

919
00:39:55.040 --> 00:39:59.140
 Yeah so that for example that would be our kind of

920
00:40:00.140 --> 00:40:03.060
 yeah our best form of sustainably grown barley

921
00:40:03.860 --> 00:40:08.320
 and we have yeah for our sacked malt customers

922
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:12.100
 in the craft sector we can promise that 100% of the barley

923
00:40:12.100 --> 00:40:16.040
 coming from that is regeneratively grown.

924
00:40:16.340 --> 00:40:20.160
 So we pass on those carbon savings associated

925
00:40:20.160 --> 00:40:23.680
 with the sustainable growth to sacked malt customers.

926
00:40:24.220 --> 00:40:25.180
 Yeah awesome.

927
00:40:26.020 --> 00:40:27.880
 What kind of like projects or innovations

928
00:40:27.880 --> 00:40:30.660
 are you working on that you're really excited about?

929
00:40:31.460 --> 00:40:33.740
 So we've got a lot of really interesting

930
00:40:33.740 --> 00:40:35.420
 product projects on at the moment.

931
00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:39.580
 So we've got two researchers in new product development.

932
00:40:40.340 --> 00:40:40.960
 I'm one of them.

933
00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:44.520
 I kind of focus more on the soft drinks

934
00:40:44.520 --> 00:40:46.980
 beer distilling side of things.

935
00:40:47.520 --> 00:40:49.320
 So a lot of the work that I've been doing

936
00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:51.760
 at the moment has been on like new forms

937
00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:54.620
 of malt extract for different applications.

938
00:40:55.560 --> 00:41:00.310
 We're also starting to look into how we can

939
00:41:01.960 --> 00:41:05.620
 change our peating process a little bit

940
00:41:05.620 --> 00:41:10.000
 to provide distillers with a new kind of interesting taste.

941
00:41:11.640 --> 00:41:16.060
 And you know peat is a really difficult material to work with.

942
00:41:16.500 --> 00:41:20.080
 Extracting it is a really harsh and horrible process

943
00:41:20.080 --> 00:41:26.480
 that kind of scars peat bog for generations basically.

944
00:41:29.080 --> 00:41:31.100
 So primarily yeah I've been looking at

945
00:41:31.100 --> 00:41:32.980
 just new forms of malt extracts

946
00:41:32.980 --> 00:41:37.060
 and applications of yeah the kind of dark malt extracts

947
00:41:37.060 --> 00:41:41.440
 for coloring up beers and you know say you wanted to.

948
00:41:42.620 --> 00:41:44.000
 This maybe isn't so much something

949
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:45.400
 that a craft brewer would do

950
00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:48.160
 but for industrial breweries it's quite common

951
00:41:48.160 --> 00:41:50.940
 to have like a base beer

952
00:41:52.560 --> 00:41:55.860
 that's you know brewed to like seven or eight percent

953
00:41:55.860 --> 00:41:58.380
 that you then kind of water back

954
00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:01.880
 and you can add some coloring

955
00:42:01.880 --> 00:42:05.300
 to kind of change the flavor a little bit post-filtration.

956
00:42:05.780 --> 00:42:07.020
 So that's a lot of the work

957
00:42:07.020 --> 00:42:08.500
 that I've been kind of looking at

958
00:42:08.500 --> 00:42:12.320
 to kind of simplify that process for industrial brewers.

959
00:42:14.100 --> 00:42:15.820
 What sort of industrial brewers would they be?

960
00:42:16.340 --> 00:42:17.740
 Like we're talking about the big global.

961
00:42:17.740 --> 00:42:20.540
 Yeah exactly big global people.

962
00:42:20.540 --> 00:42:22.100
 Obviously I can't say exactly who.

963
00:42:22.200 --> 00:42:23.960
 Yeah we won't mention your name for sure.

964
00:42:24.540 --> 00:42:25.660
 I'm sure people can guess.

965
00:42:27.020 --> 00:42:31.100
 Yeah I think I would say everyone is up to it

966
00:42:31.100 --> 00:42:32.680
 but I think it's a really good hack

967
00:42:32.680 --> 00:42:35.280
 to know as a craft brewer as well

968
00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:38.540
 because if you you know the key in beer

969
00:42:38.540 --> 00:42:40.680
 is not only producing something great

970
00:42:40.680 --> 00:42:42.920
 it's producing something great consistently.

971
00:42:44.600 --> 00:42:46.940
 Would that also work with like all styles of beer

972
00:42:46.940 --> 00:42:49.460
 or was it mainly for ones that obviously

973
00:42:49.460 --> 00:42:51.040
 because if you're watering back

974
00:42:51.040 --> 00:42:54.400
 wouldn't that create a bit of less body in the beer

975
00:42:54.400 --> 00:42:55.300
 make it a bit thinner?

976
00:42:56.240 --> 00:42:58.280
 It depends on what you're aiming for.

977
00:42:58.660 --> 00:43:01.680
 Typically with the style of brew

978
00:43:01.680 --> 00:43:03.440
 it's called very high gravity brewing.

979
00:43:03.740 --> 00:43:07.020
 So the idea is that you brew to like eight percent

980
00:43:07.020 --> 00:43:10.020
 give or take or seven and a half, seven

981
00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:14.160
 and the body is too multi, it's too cloying

982
00:43:14.160 --> 00:43:15.380
 it's too everything.

983
00:43:15.380 --> 00:43:18.100
 It's designed with that kind of dilution

984
00:43:18.100 --> 00:43:19.540
 in the end in mind.

985
00:43:21.200 --> 00:43:23.240
 You would have thought that you would end up

986
00:43:23.240 --> 00:43:24.600
 with something really thin and horrible

987
00:43:24.600 --> 00:43:26.860
 but no it's kind of the whole process

988
00:43:26.860 --> 00:43:29.360
 is designed with that final dilution in mind

989
00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:32.900
 to give you that product that people kind of know

990
00:43:32.900 --> 00:43:36.940
 and love and the reason for doing it

991
00:43:36.940 --> 00:43:38.040
 is it's more efficient.

992
00:43:38.600 --> 00:43:41.700
 You get more through your brew house at one time.

993
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:43.240
 The cycle time is a bit quicker.

994
00:43:43.240 --> 00:43:46.020
 The yeast is stressed but does some

995
00:43:46.020 --> 00:43:47.820
 very interesting things as a result.

996
00:43:47.960 --> 00:43:50.220
 You have some very interesting flavor development

997
00:43:50.220 --> 00:43:53.100
 but with the malt extract kind of story

998
00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:56.820
 is a really useful thing for craft brewers to know

999
00:43:56.820 --> 00:44:00.760
 to say oh I didn't get as much color development

1000
00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:03.580
 in boiling the wort as I would have liked

1001
00:44:03.580 --> 00:44:05.400
 so my beer is a little bit lighter

1002
00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:06.700
 than I would have liked.

1003
00:44:08.520 --> 00:44:10.600
 The last thing you want is a customer

1004
00:44:10.600 --> 00:44:12.380
 to come up to you as a brewer and say

1005
00:44:12.380 --> 00:44:13.860
 this doesn't quite look right.

1006
00:44:13.900 --> 00:44:15.420
 This doesn't quite taste right.

1007
00:44:15.700 --> 00:44:17.180
 It's missing something.

1008
00:44:18.620 --> 00:44:21.180
 So that's where using a malt extract

1009
00:44:21.180 --> 00:44:23.600
 it can kind of help balance out those problems

1010
00:44:23.600 --> 00:44:27.520
 and one of the challenges I really love

1011
00:44:27.520 --> 00:44:30.420
 about beer is that consistency challenge

1012
00:44:31.100 --> 00:44:33.180
 is saying I'm making a great beer

1013
00:44:33.180 --> 00:44:36.200
 and I can make a great beer every day of the year

1014
00:44:36.860 --> 00:44:38.880
 and that is a real challenge

1015
00:44:38.880 --> 00:44:41.860
 and having those products to make up

1016
00:44:41.860 --> 00:44:44.380
 that shortfall is a great tool

1017
00:44:44.380 --> 00:44:45.980
 in a craft brewer's arsenal

1018
00:44:45.980 --> 00:44:48.140
 because if the big boys are doing it

1019
00:44:48.140 --> 00:44:49.480
 why shouldn't craft beer?

1020
00:44:50.640 --> 00:44:52.440
 Yeah malt extracts have been used by

1021
00:44:52.440 --> 00:44:54.160
 like traditional family brewers

1022
00:44:54.160 --> 00:44:55.400
 for decades now as well

1023
00:44:55.400 --> 00:44:57.580
 so they use it if they're making

1024
00:44:57.580 --> 00:44:59.720
 like maybe a mild or a dark mild or whatever

1025
00:44:59.720 --> 00:45:01.860
 so they'll take that bit of liquor

1026
00:45:01.860 --> 00:45:04.240
 back to dark mild strength

1027
00:45:04.240 --> 00:45:06.340
 like three, two or whatever it is

1028
00:45:06.340 --> 00:45:07.760
 and then they'll tint it back up

1029
00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:09.280
 with the malt extracts

1030
00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:11.760
 so it gets used quite a bit in that sector

1031
00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:14.840
 but it's not really used by craft customers

1032
00:45:14.840 --> 00:45:16.160
 and it's probably because

1033
00:45:16.160 --> 00:45:17.360
 they're not measuring as much

1034
00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:19.330
 as what a macro could do

1035
00:45:20.360 --> 00:45:21.820
 like macros are talking about

1036
00:45:21.820 --> 00:45:23.440
 like small increments

1037
00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:25.240
 that sometimes you can't even see

1038
00:45:25.240 --> 00:45:26.420
 with the naked eye

1039
00:45:26.420 --> 00:45:28.100
 but they'll have a speck to hit

1040
00:45:28.100 --> 00:45:30.040
 so that's where the malt extracts

1041
00:45:30.040 --> 00:45:32.620
 will come in really good for tinting beers up

1042
00:45:33.400 --> 00:45:34.940
 but in a craft brewery

1043
00:45:34.940 --> 00:45:38.700
 it's probably better for like boosting extracts

1044
00:45:38.700 --> 00:45:40.340
 for basically brew house extension

1045
00:45:40.340 --> 00:45:41.600
 I don't know if you're brewing

1046
00:45:42.180 --> 00:45:43.460
 if you're brewing a double IPA

1047
00:45:44.160 --> 00:45:45.480
 if you don't want to use dextrose

1048
00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:47.480
 because you think it'll pull

1049
00:45:47.480 --> 00:45:49.020
 the final gravity down too much

1050
00:45:49.020 --> 00:45:50.160
 you could use malt extract

1051
00:45:50.160 --> 00:45:52.380
 and you'll get the same amount

1052
00:45:52.380 --> 00:45:53.920
 of fermentability as you would

1053
00:45:53.920 --> 00:45:54.640
 just from mashing

1054
00:45:54.640 --> 00:45:56.780
 so if you can't fit it in your mash tun

1055
00:45:56.780 --> 00:45:59.300
 and you want to do a 8% double IPA

1056
00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:01.460
 Yeah it works well

1057
00:46:01.460 --> 00:46:03.760
 Yeah just boost it up with malt extracts

1058
00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:06.340
 Yeah definitely works well for home brewers

1059
00:46:06.340 --> 00:46:08.940
 obviously using a 30 litre grain farver

1060
00:46:08.940 --> 00:46:12.320
 trying to get all those oats and stuff in there

1061
00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:13.920
 without getting a stock sparge

1062
00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:15.720
 is quite complicated

1063
00:46:17.640 --> 00:46:19.820
 using a malt extract on that

1064
00:46:19.820 --> 00:46:21.800
 would be really much beneficial

1065
00:46:22.300 --> 00:46:24.460
 Yeah home brewers probably use

1066
00:46:24.460 --> 00:46:25.700
 more of it than the craft brewers

1067
00:46:25.700 --> 00:46:27.960
 because they're using spray malt

1068
00:46:28.600 --> 00:46:29.620
 for bits and bobs

1069
00:46:29.620 --> 00:46:31.260
 and they're using malt extract

1070
00:46:31.260 --> 00:46:32.700
 to prime bottles up

1071
00:46:32.700 --> 00:46:34.060
 for carbonation and stuff

1072
00:46:34.720 --> 00:46:35.980
 Yeah I mean some of the kit

1073
00:46:35.980 --> 00:46:36.780
 you can get for home brewing

1074
00:46:36.780 --> 00:46:37.460
 now is probably better

1075
00:46:37.460 --> 00:46:38.480
 than some commercial breweries

1076
00:46:39.190 --> 00:46:41.820
 Yeah yeah grandfather's mint

1077
00:46:41.820 --> 00:46:43.940
 Yeah they are they're really good

1078
00:46:44.720 --> 00:46:46.040
 Have you done anything recently

1079
00:46:46.040 --> 00:46:47.800
 or are you involved in anything

1080
00:46:47.800 --> 00:46:50.300
 with like low and no alcohol beer

1081
00:46:50.300 --> 00:46:52.680
 you know a lot of new products

1082
00:46:52.680 --> 00:46:54.220
 coming out with yeast as well

1083
00:46:54.220 --> 00:46:56.640
 do you guys work doing anything

1084
00:46:56.640 --> 00:46:57.820
 for that sort of area

1085
00:46:57.820 --> 00:47:00.080
 Yeah so we're working with

1086
00:47:00.080 --> 00:47:01.700
 a couple of breweries at the moment

1087
00:47:01.700 --> 00:47:04.480
 trying to help them deliver low and no

1088
00:47:05.340 --> 00:47:07.680
 that's part of my day-to-day job

1089
00:47:07.680 --> 00:47:09.020
 is giving breweries

1090
00:47:09.020 --> 00:47:10.320
 kind of the technical support

1091
00:47:10.320 --> 00:47:12.740
 and the know-how to make stuff happen

1092
00:47:13.700 --> 00:47:15.140
 So yeah that's something

1093
00:47:15.140 --> 00:47:17.400
 that I'm actively helping breweries with

1094
00:47:18.080 --> 00:47:21.840
 We also have a low and no malt extract

1095
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:24.140
 basically that you can add

1096
00:47:24.140 --> 00:47:26.780
 to a work kettle

1097
00:47:26.780 --> 00:47:28.280
 with some hot water

1098
00:47:28.280 --> 00:47:31.920
 and then add like a preservative

1099
00:47:31.920 --> 00:47:33.820
 and make sure the pH is okay

1100
00:47:33.820 --> 00:47:35.640
 and it's you know

1101
00:47:35.640 --> 00:47:36.880
 you can boil it with some hops

1102
00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:40.480
 and it's ready to bottle basically

1103
00:47:41.520 --> 00:47:44.840
 so massively simplifying things for brewers

1104
00:47:45.600 --> 00:47:46.700
 Yeah like you said

1105
00:47:46.700 --> 00:47:48.700
 it's a massive and emerging field

1106
00:47:49.420 --> 00:47:51.600
 a lot of the challenges come from it

1107
00:47:51.600 --> 00:47:54.860
 with just the fact that low and no alcohol

1108
00:47:54.860 --> 00:47:57.680
 they don't have that alcohol as a stabilizer

1109
00:47:59.240 --> 00:48:02.260
 you know you hear horror stories

1110
00:48:02.260 --> 00:48:05.300
 of even you know Guinness and Diageo

1111
00:48:06.860 --> 00:48:09.540
 with bottles of zero percent Guinness

1112
00:48:09.540 --> 00:48:12.960
 that have had you know issues

1113
00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:15.380
 because there's no alcohol to stabilize

1114
00:48:15.380 --> 00:48:17.440
 so you know you can get as bad

1115
00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:19.720
 as exploding cans, exploding bottles

1116
00:48:19.720 --> 00:48:21.300
 over pressured kegs

1117
00:48:21.300 --> 00:48:23.760
 so it's something that we're working

1118
00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:25.640
 with brewers to try and provide

1119
00:48:25.640 --> 00:48:27.400
 like advice when it comes to recipes

1120
00:48:27.400 --> 00:48:30.600
 but also look into how best to support

1121
00:48:30.600 --> 00:48:33.760
 that pint all the way to a customer's glass

1122
00:48:33.760 --> 00:48:36.200
 to make sure it's all good

1123
00:48:36.200 --> 00:48:37.140
 Yeah definitely

1124
00:48:37.140 --> 00:48:39.780
 I mean I was talking to Paul from WHC lab

1125
00:48:39.780 --> 00:48:42.060
 and we spoke about low and no alcohol

1126
00:48:43.080 --> 00:48:45.320
 the biggest flavor-wise for me

1127
00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:47.540
 is taste-wise for alcohol-free beers

1128
00:48:47.540 --> 00:48:48.480
 is that body

1129
00:48:48.480 --> 00:48:51.800
 especially for like an IPA or a pale

1130
00:48:51.800 --> 00:48:53.380
 I mean it's quite easy

1131
00:48:53.380 --> 00:48:55.060
 when you're brewing an alcohol-free lager

1132
00:48:55.060 --> 00:48:56.420
 because it hasn't really got much body

1133
00:48:56.420 --> 00:48:57.700
 to it or anything

1134
00:48:57.700 --> 00:48:59.000
 it's quite a thin beer anyway

1135
00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:01.400
 but when you're trying to brew these big hazy beers

1136
00:49:01.400 --> 00:49:03.840
 you see Beak doing with Lolia

1137
00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:05.220
 we hop forward beers

1138
00:49:05.220 --> 00:49:06.140
 and trying to get that balance

1139
00:49:06.140 --> 00:49:08.660
 between hops and mouthfeel

1140
00:49:08.660 --> 00:49:10.540
 and trying to get the body into a beer

1141
00:49:10.540 --> 00:49:12.620
 it seems to be the thing

1142
00:49:12.620 --> 00:49:14.860
 that I would focus on more

1143
00:49:14.860 --> 00:49:15.960
 Yeah exactly

1144
00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:18.520
 it's a real challenge kind of depending on

1145
00:49:18.520 --> 00:49:20.220
 well keeping that body like you say

1146
00:49:20.220 --> 00:49:21.120
 is a real challenge

1147
00:49:21.120 --> 00:49:22.380
 you don't want too much body

1148
00:49:22.380 --> 00:49:24.680
 you don't want that kind of like breadiness

1149
00:49:24.680 --> 00:49:29.020
 that a lot of no alcohol beers have

1150
00:49:29.660 --> 00:49:32.180
 which for some people that's a real benefit

1151
00:49:32.180 --> 00:49:35.880
 but if you want to do a no alcohol version

1152
00:49:35.880 --> 00:49:38.360
 of a brand that is a customer favorite

1153
00:49:38.360 --> 00:49:39.640
 sure it's a real challenge

1154
00:49:39.640 --> 00:49:41.780
 matching that body and that mouthfeel

1155
00:49:41.780 --> 00:49:43.980
 and that kind of multi backbone

1156
00:49:45.460 --> 00:49:47.340
 there are a couple of different approaches

1157
00:49:47.340 --> 00:49:48.540
 that we can take

1158
00:49:48.540 --> 00:49:52.180
 we can look into how we're mashing

1159
00:49:52.180 --> 00:49:54.080
 so we try and extract

1160
00:49:54.080 --> 00:49:56.360
 as few fermentable sugars as possible

1161
00:49:56.360 --> 00:50:01.140
 giving the yeast kind of very little to work with

1162
00:50:01.140 --> 00:50:04.140
 so you don't ferment very far at all

1163
00:50:06.280 --> 00:50:08.700
 so yeah I think it's almost something

1164
00:50:08.700 --> 00:50:11.500
 where we should almost start working on a malt

1165
00:50:11.500 --> 00:50:14.900
 that is better for low and no alcohol

1166
00:50:14.900 --> 00:50:16.720
 like we have we recommend it

1167
00:50:16.720 --> 00:50:18.180
 we recommend certain malts

1168
00:50:18.180 --> 00:50:20.620
 like dextrin malt is quite a good one

1169
00:50:21.560 --> 00:50:23.980
 for low and no just because it

1170
00:50:23.980 --> 00:50:25.140
 you know as the name suggests

1171
00:50:25.140 --> 00:50:27.620
 it's full of like dextrins

1172
00:50:27.620 --> 00:50:30.900
 which are by nature very unfermentable

1173
00:50:33.520 --> 00:50:35.760
 but yeah it's something where

1174
00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:37.880
 and I don't know how you would make it happen

1175
00:50:37.880 --> 00:50:41.380
 but yeah a malt designed for no alcohol

1176
00:50:41.380 --> 00:50:43.120
 would be a would be a game changer

1177
00:50:43.120 --> 00:50:45.540
 essentially that isn't it

1178
00:50:45.540 --> 00:50:46.580
 that's the malt

1179
00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:49.680
 you want more dextrins

1180
00:50:49.680 --> 00:50:52.640
 so really high grist in that

1181
00:50:52.640 --> 00:50:54.160
 yeah really high grist in that

1182
00:50:54.160 --> 00:51:00.820
 like you know 90 80 percent of dextrin malt

1183
00:51:00.820 --> 00:51:02.840
 and mash it at a really high temperature

1184
00:51:02.840 --> 00:51:05.960
 so your starch degrading enzymes

1185
00:51:05.960 --> 00:51:08.360
 your amylases they're not doing very much

1186
00:51:08.360 --> 00:51:10.380
 because they're de-matured

1187
00:51:10.380 --> 00:51:13.000
 but you've still got all the kind of protein

1188
00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:14.720
 from the malt there to support

1189
00:51:14.720 --> 00:51:16.600
 whatever kind of limited fermentation

1190
00:51:16.600 --> 00:51:18.040
 you're going to do

1191
00:51:19.260 --> 00:51:23.060
 yeah and the yeast that's got low intenuation

1192
00:51:23.060 --> 00:51:24.340
 exactly yeah

1193
00:51:24.340 --> 00:51:26.520
 doesn't eat up the the multi-trios and

1194
00:51:26.520 --> 00:51:27.840
 exactly exactly yeah

1195
00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:29.580
 you've got a yeast that doesn't eat

1196
00:51:29.580 --> 00:51:31.400
 multi-trios it's maltose negative

1197
00:51:31.400 --> 00:51:33.040
 you know all of those kind of things

1198
00:51:33.040 --> 00:51:35.300
 all of those really great mutations

1199
00:51:35.300 --> 00:51:37.040
 that I'm sure Paul would have talked about

1200
00:51:37.040 --> 00:51:39.580
 as my I geek out on these kind of things

1201
00:51:39.580 --> 00:51:42.340
 because yeah I find it really interesting

1202
00:51:42.340 --> 00:51:43.940
 that and you know different science

1203
00:51:43.940 --> 00:51:45.760
 the science part of brewing

1204
00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:49.080
 because you know there is a lot of science behind it

1205
00:51:49.080 --> 00:51:52.360
 and but yeah it's um it'd be

1206
00:51:52.360 --> 00:51:53.780
 it's interesting to see how it's going

1207
00:51:53.780 --> 00:51:54.440
 to how it's going to go

1208
00:51:54.440 --> 00:51:55.720
 because it is obviously growing

1209
00:51:55.720 --> 00:51:57.120
 at quite a high rate

1210
00:51:57.720 --> 00:51:59.460
 so it'd be interesting to see the products

1211
00:51:59.460 --> 00:52:00.560
 that are starting to come out

1212
00:52:01.260 --> 00:52:04.160
 to help produce better alcohol-free beers

1213
00:52:04.160 --> 00:52:05.400
 and lower low ABVs

1214
00:52:06.580 --> 00:52:09.120
 so yeah last question

1215
00:52:09.120 --> 00:52:11.140
 what's one thing your customers

1216
00:52:11.140 --> 00:52:12.960
 can expect from Munson's in the future

1217
00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:15.900
 I think probably more of the

1218
00:52:15.900 --> 00:52:17.540
 the promise of the sustainability

1219
00:52:18.100 --> 00:52:19.280
 Ben's gone into

1220
00:52:20.040 --> 00:52:21.700
 we're like right in the thick of it

1221
00:52:21.700 --> 00:52:23.140
 we're not going to give up on that

1222
00:52:23.140 --> 00:52:26.080
 so probably that still the same

1223
00:52:26.080 --> 00:52:27.100
 sort of great quality malt

1224
00:52:27.100 --> 00:52:28.380
 still the same everything

1225
00:52:28.380 --> 00:52:29.780
 that you'd expect from a maltster

1226
00:52:29.780 --> 00:52:31.700
 like I don't think brewers want things

1227
00:52:31.700 --> 00:52:33.400
 to change too much with malt

1228
00:52:34.420 --> 00:52:36.100
 but it's just perhaps a story

1229
00:52:36.100 --> 00:52:37.620
 around how it gets from

1230
00:52:37.620 --> 00:52:39.080
 from the farmer to them

1231
00:52:40.320 --> 00:52:41.800
 which is all about working

1232
00:52:41.800 --> 00:52:42.800
 with them regeneratively

1233
00:52:42.800 --> 00:52:44.980
 and everything Ben's gone into

1234
00:52:45.780 --> 00:52:46.980
 that's probably what they're

1235
00:52:46.980 --> 00:52:48.480
 going to expect more from us

1236
00:52:48.480 --> 00:52:49.100
 yeah definitely

1237
00:52:49.100 --> 00:52:53.080
 how's the yields been so far this year

1238
00:52:53.080 --> 00:52:54.140
 yields are not too bad

1239
00:52:55.220 --> 00:52:56.980
 I don't think any of our customers

1240
00:52:56.980 --> 00:52:58.460
 are really going to get affected

1241
00:52:58.460 --> 00:53:00.120
 too much by the harvest

1242
00:53:00.120 --> 00:53:02.440
 where we can sort of

1243
00:53:02.440 --> 00:53:04.000
 blend things together in the malting

1244
00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:06.120
 so say if one field's not very good

1245
00:53:06.120 --> 00:53:07.340
 but the next field is

1246
00:53:07.340 --> 00:53:08.700
 well then we can make an okay malt

1247
00:53:08.700 --> 00:53:10.020
 by putting them both together

1248
00:53:10.840 --> 00:53:12.380
 yeah to meet your targets kind of

1249
00:53:12.380 --> 00:53:14.080
 yeah to meet specifications

1250
00:53:14.080 --> 00:53:15.380
 and what the brewer needs and stuff

1251
00:53:15.380 --> 00:53:18.900
 so yield-wise I don't think

1252
00:53:18.900 --> 00:53:19.880
 it's going to cause us a problem

1253
00:53:19.880 --> 00:53:21.020
 sounds good yeah

1254
00:53:21.940 --> 00:53:23.560
 we're going to wrap it up now

1255
00:53:23.560 --> 00:53:25.200
 but one thing for maybe

1256
00:53:25.200 --> 00:53:27.600
 either one of you to describe

1257
00:53:27.600 --> 00:53:28.940
 something about mountains

1258
00:53:28.940 --> 00:53:30.380
 that people might not know

1259
00:53:30.380 --> 00:53:31.760
 a little interesting fact

1260
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:34.860
 I guess yeah I mean

1261
00:53:34.860 --> 00:53:36.680
 I can think of one which is

1262
00:53:36.680 --> 00:53:39.700
 we actually have a microbrewery on site

1263
00:53:40.460 --> 00:53:43.220
 that's my office basically

1264
00:53:43.220 --> 00:53:44.100
 so I get to work

1265
00:53:44.100 --> 00:53:45.780
 a little research brewery

1266
00:53:47.240 --> 00:53:49.760
 which I think some days

1267
00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:50.880
 I'm like I have the best job

1268
00:53:50.880 --> 00:53:51.660
 in the world

1269
00:53:52.700 --> 00:53:54.940
 so you know we're here

1270
00:53:54.940 --> 00:53:56.320
 to provide technical support

1271
00:53:56.320 --> 00:53:58.300
 but also we can do trial brewing

1272
00:53:58.300 --> 00:53:59.340
 with our customers

1273
00:54:00.500 --> 00:54:02.960
 so if any customers are listening

1274
00:54:02.960 --> 00:54:05.940
 or you know anyone wants to develop

1275
00:54:05.940 --> 00:54:08.060
 some recipes with mountains

1276
00:54:08.060 --> 00:54:09.840
 you know we can not only

1277
00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:10.860
 just create recipes

1278
00:54:10.860 --> 00:54:12.680
 but we can trial them

1279
00:54:12.680 --> 00:54:14.800
 and send you a trial product as well

1280
00:54:14.800 --> 00:54:17.060
 so awesome yeah

1281
00:54:17.060 --> 00:54:18.220
 do you big question though

1282
00:54:18.220 --> 00:54:19.420
 do you do the cleaning afterwards

1283
00:54:19.420 --> 00:54:20.640
 yeah definitely

1284
00:54:22.340 --> 00:54:25.460
 yeah I had a customer visit recently

1285
00:54:25.460 --> 00:54:27.760
 where I forgot to turn off a tap

1286
00:54:27.760 --> 00:54:30.060
 basically and I opened the door

1287
00:54:30.060 --> 00:54:31.240
 and there was a small flood

1288
00:54:31.240 --> 00:54:32.820
 just that made its way out

1289
00:54:32.820 --> 00:54:34.000
 of the research brewery

1290
00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:35.880
 into the corridor

1291
00:54:36.560 --> 00:54:38.200
 which was not my finest moment

1292
00:54:38.200 --> 00:54:39.780
 but yeah I was definitely

1293
00:54:39.780 --> 00:54:41.180
 I was there with the mop and bucket

1294
00:54:41.180 --> 00:54:42.260
 afterwards so

1295
00:54:43.580 --> 00:54:44.540
 ouch guys

1296
00:54:44.540 --> 00:54:46.040
 it's been an absolute pleasure

1297
00:54:46.040 --> 00:54:46.960
 to talk with you

1298
00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:48.140
 and I'm gonna let you shoot off

1299
00:54:48.140 --> 00:54:49.500
 I'm sure you're very busy

1300
00:54:49.500 --> 00:54:50.620
 yeah it's been a pleasure

1301
00:54:50.620 --> 00:54:51.320
 to have you on

1302
00:54:51.320 --> 00:54:53.720
 to wrap up the fab four series

1303
00:54:53.720 --> 00:54:54.840
 right pleasure to you

1304
00:54:55.340 --> 00:54:56.460
 pleasure thanks Alvin us

1305
00:54:56.460 --> 00:54:57.780
 no worries cheers

1306
00:54:57.780 --> 00:54:59.200
 yeah but this would be our last episode

1307
00:54:59.200 --> 00:55:00.260
 until next year

1308
00:55:00.260 --> 00:55:01.560
 I'm gonna enjoy a nice break

1309
00:55:01.560 --> 00:55:02.980
 a nice holiday two weeks off

1310
00:55:02.980 --> 00:55:04.180
 of Christmas wonderful

1311
00:55:04.180 --> 00:55:06.740
 so yeah until 2026

1312
00:55:06.740 --> 00:55:07.980
 we'll see you again

1313
00:55:07.980 --> 00:55:08.680
 see you later

1314
00:55:08.680 --> 00:55:09.180
 bye-bye