Inside Anspach & Hobday: The Rise of London Black

Martin (00:00)
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Beer Rep Chats with and proudly sponsored by The Keg Warehouse, today I am absolutely delighted to be joined by Jack Hobday, co-founder of Anspach & Hobday in London. Jack, thank you very much for joining the show.

Jack (00:15)
Thanks Martin. It's it's great to be here and great to be asked on.

Martin (00:18)
mate, it's a pleasure to have you on. I'm a massive, massive fan of London Black and quite rightly, you're promoting London Black on your hat as we speak. But for anyone who hasn't discovered Anspach & Hobday, can you tell us a bit about the brewery and what you're all about and stuff?

Jack (00:36)
Yeah. Well it's funny because I think these days I've had people come up to me and say, you work for London Black. And that that kind of sums things up these days. But the brewery's twelve years old. It was set up by myself and my business partner, Paul Anspach We were actually I've known him since we were four in kindergarten or even three and a half, but we were we were both in London at university at the time and flatmates and my lecturer said, Have a go at home brewing. This is two thousand ten.

Martin (00:56)
Wow.

Jack (01:07)
and you'll save some money. And we got into home brewing and then I think the craft wave in London was already in sort of motion from two thousand nine. So we sort of started to look at whether we could set up a business and we hadn't set up any sort of careers for ourselves. So yeah we had to go and and incorporated set up we did a Kickstarter campaign in twenty thirteen, had our arch in Bermondsey twenty fourteen and then

Well, the rest is history. I think London Black, which is what I say is now seventy percent of what we do and is a nitro porter. it's it came on the scene just after COVID. We'd we would always been well known from the homebrew days on the sort of first good beer we did was a porter, and that was a six point seven percent. And people always asking us, is that like a Guinness? And eventually, yeah, in in COVID we had the

But had nothing else to lose and thought, right, let's have a go at making a nitro version of that porter and we'll drop the A B V. tweaked the recipe a little bit and it's been a real big success for sure.

Martin (02:19)
Yeah, for sure. Can you tell us a little bit of difference between like a standard porter and a nitro porter?

Jack (02:25)
Well, effectively the way I think of it is when it's makes nitro and Guinness the Guinness are the pioneers of this style, they were trying to move cask beer over to keg. And the problem with that is if you do it on ordinary keg gas, which is mainly CO2 the equilibriums in the in the beer are gonna mean that the beer becomes carbonated. So if you start with a a low like a cask ale level of of carbonation, you'll end up with something that's fizzy like a lager.

so as an English mathematist, I think, who was working for Guinness, he had the idea of using nitrogen, which is far less soluble in liquid, in water or in beer, to to use that to push the beer around at high pressure so that you would effectively change the way the equilibrium works and not have a carbonation. What also then happens is nitrogen still does dissolve a bit into the into the beer and it likes to come out quite quickly.

as well. So you have this low gas level in the beer already, plus nitrogen, when it goes through a creamer nozzle, which agitates it, or in your cans when you have your widget, it creates turbulence and that basically the nitrogen forms a a load of nucleation points and you get very small bubbles of CO2 coming out. and so yeah, your nitro beer is basically very similar to cask, but with the addition of nitrogen when it's

poured and if it's poured correctly, you get very tiny bubbles, even smaller than say the creamiest cask you get, and nitro beer will be even smoother.

Martin (04:00)
Yeah.

Jack (04:01)
The hardest part is getting the nitrogen to go in, as I say, and that really requires it to be cold and yeah, you're also playing with pressure there, so people should be should be very careful. But yeah, in the in the end, think of it most as a low CO2 beer and the nitrogen is helping to just cause a lot of nucleation.

Martin (04:14)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jack (04:28)
I how I think of it. And then then you get your very tiny bubbles. And and the the big part of that is why cans have widgets and you have you know the Guinness nozzle, you need to agitate it to get the beer out. So that's how low the carbonation is. It's a bit like a sparkler on a cask.

Martin (04:44)
Yeah, you have to agitate the beer to get the end of product, that creaminess.

Jack (04:50)
aren't using widget cans will are advocating a hard pour because you need something. And even with the Guinness have got their their draft can now where you put the little gadget on top and pour through that, it basically is an agitator. And the reason you don't need the widget, the widget doesn't change the composition of the beer. It's just when you open it, it creates a load of turbulence and that helps. Because it's a bit like when you're pouring a Lager or if you pour a beer badly into a glass

Martin (05:00)
Yeah.

Jack (05:14)
If you start off with foam, you get more foam as it goes through. So you just need to get that start going. and then it should do the rest for you. But yeah, hopefully that's helpful.

Martin (05:14)
get the foam yeah yeah

Yeah, I think a lot of people are interested in how Nitro works and the differences between brewing it and there's not really much difference to the recipe. It's more to do, like you said, with the agitation of the beer using Nitro.

Jack (05:41)
the hardest thing was the gas mix and from a homebrew level I'm not sure what the answer is because you really want the equipment where you could measure both. And I guess really actually if you go back to the very beginning of London Black, what we were doing was

we were using a we were bubbling the nitrogen through until we basically had got a something that resembled what we were after from taste and and from trying from the sample tap. That's basically that was basic basically it. And then as it became more popular we we realised we wanted to tighten down the parameters. To be fair, the guys did a a good long stint where they were doing it mainly by taste, but there, you know.

The their twelve years' experience to that. Thank you.

Martin (06:24)
You nailed it in the end. It's an amazing beer

because it just has that more of that chocolateyness, chocolate flavour coming through a little bit. And, you know, it's less harsh with the iron as well compared to the Guinness. Obviously it's a stout, two different styles of beer. But yeah, I much prefer the London black. And yeah, my local has it on all the time. The one in the wood, in Petts Wood, big shout out to them. They always have it, always have it on the tap. yeah, always go down there. Always know I'm going to get a nice pint, no matter what they have on.

Jack (06:51)
great.

Martin (07:00)
So I'm happy. Yes, definitely. So it's been, as I said, it's been over a decade since you first started. When you look back from when you first started, what are the biggest changes you've kind of seen over the years?

Jack (07:01)
Awesome. Yeah. They're a great customer.

I think you've definitely seen it in my opinion, the wave of craft beer starts with like even further back with the Real Ale in the the seventies and eighties. The Americans are then copying that. And then I think when in two thousand nine you see the sort of rebound of the American versions of of English and European, certainly Belgian German styles of beer sort of coming back over, particularly IPAs, which

then would have been about West Coast IPAs. And I remember when we were homebrewing, we would be trying some things like Red Racer Five or Arrogant from Stone and and

We're not realising that we were just having aged IPAs that were way maltier than they should have been. They still have bitterness, but they didn't have the hops that they were they were meant to. And and we we were even trying to then homebrew versions like that, thinking, that's what these American beers should be great. They were still full of flavour, but they weren't anywhere like they would be if they were super fresh. And then I think that awareness comes over. I think the importation of American beers got better. There was a window where everything was about

trying American styles and I think they led for many years after that really. and obviously you then have the introduction of New England IPA. That that comes in and we had just got to the point where we'd learnt how to clear our beer up properly, that it was just too much for us to want to then make an intentionally hazy and and as a brewery we're quite a dry and bitter set of palettes. So we were not we're not into it being too juicy and

They've obvious that's obviously gone from being a fad into a proper trend and I don't see New England IPA disappearing anywhere. But I'd say that's a landmark in the in the journey. And I think then you had just proliferation of breweries, a sort of booming market that then probably reaches its top in just before COVID. At that time also dark beers were just starting to take off and

We did a crowdfund in 2019 to get a new site. It was based really just on us carrying on with our general range of beers that didn't include London Black. And we'd started canning beer as well. And we just about got that sorted before COVID. And I think we grew through out, but then afterwards I think there was a real drop in the varieties you see. I think a lot of breweries had to focus on core range. Yeah.

Martin (09:41)
around, too many IPAs, probably. And I think that's why you've probably seen a lot of rise in different styles of beers now, because that kind of...

it's kind of found its equilibrium, if you like, with the IPAs and people are just like, oh yeah, you know, I don't want to go into a pub or a tap room or wherever and see like the majority of beers on tap to be just IPAs because they're all kind of very similar now. A lot of people have caught up with, you know, producing really quality IPAs now. And I think that's the big difference. you say that NEIPA was the

Jack (10:08)
Yeah.

Martin (10:20)
kind of trend like that kind of kickstarted it all off but you don't really see us labeling the beers as an NEIPA like you don't see like N E IPA it's always just IPA

I think, I mean, IPA is quite a broad term in styles, different types of IPA, but it's kind of taken the traditional IPA, if you like, you know, traditional English IPA stamp away. And it's, you know, I always think that it should be labeled as a New England if it's a New England and not just IPA.

Jack (10:50)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's a good observation. I think it has eclipsed it so that now what was all those West Coast IPAs that we were originally excited about, I think you probably expect that to be labelled up clearly so that someone knows it's not going to be hazy. and yeah, it was a big change. I think there were loads of mini little fads, I think.

Martin (11:08)
Yeah.

Jack (11:20)
I mean, I remember going to the States and thinking that American wheat ale could become really big over here. there's quite a few out there that are great, but that never took. obviously we saw the sort of rise of things of low and no and and table beers.

Martin (11:38)
I do love a table beer.

Jack (11:40)
It's great. I think it's then COVID did reset things back towards maybe perhaps a bit more traditional lines. Maybe maybe not on the IPA front, but I think a reappreciation of bitters and of dark beers that perhaps just aren't quite the same if you're having them at home. Certainly on the lower A B V, if you're having them at home rather than on on draft at the pub. And I think people really missed the pub during COVID and so that rise

'cause dark beer is one of the few areas in the UK market that's growing. That then sort of took off after COVID. And I think I certainly Guinness have had a good run with their their branding and marketing. I mean, that that's that in itself is sort of a really interesting conversation. I think a big part is just how it's also true for the IPAs, how they how impactful they are on social media.

Martin (12:22)
that marketing. Yeah.

Jack (12:36)
No one's taking a photo of a Lager being like, This is the most amazing thing unless you've got a great background and you're on holiday. whereas a really nice pint of of say London Black or anyone else's nitros this looks great. Just it's really nice. and the same for I guess for New England IPA, certainly impactful, but there's there's definitely some disasters to look out for out there. But yeah.

Martin (12:43)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Certainly is, yeah. Definitely make you right. So, you know, people often see, you know, see the beer that you brew, London Black, for instance, but they don't kind of see the team that kind of makes the beer what it is today. Can you tell us a bit about the team and how you structured it and, you know, what makes it such a great team and keeping the right people around you?

Jack (13:29)
Yeah, I mean they're all they're all really they're all really interesting individuals at A & H and I think we do have a really good team ethos but there's some star players in there. I mean I've just come back from Malmo where we were part of a a festival with Hyllie Bryggeri who are based in Malmo and our logistics manager Johan he

He's from Mammo, so I brought him out with me and yeah, it's amazing how we're only a team of thirteen and that includes really sort of squeezing some part timers together into a full person. So it's amazing how

much we've managed to do with so few people and someone like Johan is a great example where he's really intersects loads of areas of the business as a logistics manager, he's looking after the web shop as well as obviously all of our distributors, export. I think we really notice it when he's on on holiday. And of course he's helping with the direct deliveries we do to London and and you could look at that as being it's not the

the glamorous role of the brewer, but it's so important for everything we do. And yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Like a really important cog. And if I went round the team, the story's similar, you realise that everyone probably covers off a lot more than you would expect just their role to do. Obviously, you know, brewers end up packaging

Martin (14:47)
Yeah, like the glue.

Jack (15:07)
the the the packaging guys will help out in tap room or or even on a brew if it's needed. it's very collaborative. and I guess I think the only thing that's really changed in those twelve years is that it used to be that the earlier you were in on the company then the more pluripotent you'd have to be. you know, me and Paul would run the taproom and

do everything. The split between production and me looking after the business and sales and marketing is quite early. But actually in truth, me and Paul still are very much meet in the middle with marketing and Eddie who works with us on creating content and campaigns. Yeah, it's a fun team. I think that probably you know, I can't speak for how they feel about working at A and H and and being part of our team, but I'm very proud of the fact that

The majority of people who have worked with us typically if they're gonna go leave the company, they go on to do something completely different or they move country entirely. Not necessarily everyone, but otherwise they've been there for a long time. Like Dan, our head brewer, he started off as a home brewer and came and helped us volunteered for

six months and then when we could we brought him on the payroll and he's had as much to do with, if not more, things, you know, some of our successful beers like London Black or The Ordinary Bitter than me and Paul have have had to do with it. He's very integral to the flavour profile of Anspach and Hobday is Dan Gaminbo But yeah, it's a great team.

Martin (16:44)
Yeah. Do you ever find yourself back on the bar every now and then?

Jack (16:48)
These days more likely at festivals. particularly because of looking after export and distribution. So I was I was pouring in Malmo just gone. I always enjoy that. It's always great to hear the feedback on the beers and I typically don't try and lead by introducing myself and it's always funny when people are sort of awestruck, it's Jack Hobley who's pouring. But I

Well, it's funny, I've got a good story of being in Belgium with that, where Frank Boon came over when I was pouring the ordinary bitter. It actually wasn't really about me, it was more me not understanding who he was. he said, this is great. I said, you know, just having a chat, I was talking said, We're a London brewery, we're over here. He said, yeah, I work in brewing. my name's Frank Boon but he really very Belgian dropped the N. So just Frank Boo.

Yeah, I didn't get the boon. And and it took me a while and then he he then he tried the beer again and he said, this beer is perfect. And the guy next to him stopped what he was doing, was like, This is Deos, as in, this is God who's speaking to you about your ordinary bitter. And I was like, Frank Boon, there we go. Nice to meet you. And then I and then I probably did say, I'm Jack Hobday of of A and H but yeah, that was very flattering.

Martin (17:46)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ding!

Jack (18:16)
it's it's great to see that and I think also just the love of the other breweries around Bermondsey and London, you know, as a collective, UK Craft Beer has a really great reputation and you definitely meet lots of people who are just fond of that in general. Maybe they've been to our place in in Bermondsey but they think of it all together and think, Wow, it's just great.

Martin (18:31)
Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So we talk about, your London black and stuff. How did you go about marketing and trying to fit like practically, but basically taking on the big guns Guinness in, you know, there's a, I think, one of slogans was there's a diff, there's a London's equivalent of, you know, Guinness.

Jack (18:59)
So I would say it's London Guinness is is the quickest way of of explaining it. But it's not really as you said, it's got more flavour, it's it's still balanced but it's not it's it's trying to be a bit more interesting than that. I think I think ultimately there was a big gap there where none of the big guys who had tried to take on Guinness, whether that's like Island's Edge from Heineken or Camden Ink or

which that's what it was called. They then relaunched it. Even Brew Dog, I think that all of them had sort of failed to gain some sort of traction, perhaps because a lot of them try to be a clone of Guinness. It's sort of near enough. And I mean I'm sure the brewers would be appalled to hear me say that. But

If that's the perception, even if it's not what they were intending, if you see it as a clone of Guinness, which, you know, going back to my slogan, maybe isn't the best way of communicating it, is quick, but it's not helpful because if you want a Guinness, go have a Guinness. You don't want to have second best. you should be trying to sort of forge something through. And I think where London Black

Martin (20:01)
Exactly,

Jack (20:13)
wins on that branding and this isn't a new idea, is that provenance of London being the well, at one stage the porter capital of the world, the Dark Beer capital of the world. there's a there's a natural fit there which again no one was really was really owning in that way. So you've got a porter rather than a stout. You've got it based in London, not just sort of

Martin (20:22)
Exactly, yeah. It certainly was.

Jack (20:39)
Nebulous and on its own. And I think that clicks and resonates with people. and I mean, I think finally the biggest point of success is that it's got a really good glass. And I sort of I'm trying to say that objectively, but obviously I'm subjective.

I think it's a good glass. The importance of that is the confidence the drinker has in what they're drinking and telling their mates what they're drinking and their mates seeing what they're drinking. And particularly for a draft beer which originally wasn't available in can and still is a small part of we're not really set up to compete with the likes of Guinness on a canning level. What we could can in a month, they probably do in an hour with the sort of lines they'll be running.

Martin (21:21)
Yeah.

Jack (21:25)
we obviously but we can compete on the draft. So you've got to be then good on the bar. And I think the POS we've put together for London Black, including the glassware, has made a big difference because as I say, people can feel confident in what they're drinking and other people can see it and recognise it. so I think then once the ball started rolling, we became known as the the UK craft

you know, the craft version of a Guinness in a way that that maybe some of the bigger guys hadn't been able to get. And then once you've got that attention and ultimately it comes back to the beer being tasty, it snowballs because you get the attention. If someone wants to write a balanced piece about Guinness they'll be looking for a craft beer person to speak on it. Certainly when Guinness had their shortage it was I've never been on I've never been on on the radio or the T V as much

Martin (22:05)
Yes, of course.

I'm sure yourselves picked up when there was a shortage of Guinness going on.

Jack (22:27)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well I try and give people the context of us versus them. I mean, I think actually I noticed that they went back to their old glass after ours had launched. And I like to think that their marketing team has a whenever they hear hear hearing me talking about Guinness, they they yeah, well they I like to think they'll be listening to this later, Martin, in truth. I should give them a little wave. I'd love to meet them. I think that the the team behind the marketing of Guinness is obviously fantastic and you know, it's it

Martin (22:41)
little spy.

Well, I hope so.

yeah, for sure.

Jack (22:57)
is always gonna be the little guys versus the big guys, but you've gotta take your hat off to probably one of the biggest brands in the world. and

Martin (23:06)
one that I was trying to push through with? They was like mixing Guinness with their low, with the alcohol free version and kind of making like a really low ABV Guinness when you mix them together. Yeah. So I think it was in one of their pubs in Dublin, that was starting it off and starting off the trend, but I don't know if it picked up with their, you know, the marketing as a whole.

Jack (23:18)
really?

I'd heard of people s sort of cutting a Guinness with their zero ABV. I can't I can't remember the name for the for that though. I think there was a smart trick trick to it. But but yeah, I mean I think they've

Martin (23:36)
Yeah.

No, it's eluded me as well.

Jack (23:47)
I think they obviously have done very, very well and they've benefited from what I think is still that natural social media boost that you've got from a dark beer. Certainly splitting the G's become a big thing. I mean people have then copied that without us trying to ever originate it with splitting the B. people do that for a London Black. And actually our our taproom manager's pretty good at it. but

Martin (23:58)
Yeah.

Yeah.

nailed it

Jack (24:15)
I think, yeah, yeah, yeah. Simon deserves a shout out. as I said, there's a lot of talent in the team. but I think it to put it all into perspective, we're still very small. So we make about seven hundred and fifty thousand litres a year. We're growing, but you know, say ten, twenty percent a year. and of that

London Black seventy percent is five hundred and twenty five thousand thereabout, which actually this year just gone made us the biggest porter brewery in London, which historically would have been on like you know ten, twenty times that scale for beer, even close to the bigger breweries. In fact, I think it's more, it's it might be even more closer to like two hundred two hundred million litres or something. Silly. There were some really big breweries in the eighteen hundreds. but if you then compare that

Martin (25:03)
Crazy, yeah.

Jack (25:08)
five hundred thousand litres of London black, Guinness make about a billion. So we're we're point zero five percent of Guinness. So that sort of

Martin (25:16)
Yeah,

well that's independent brewing in a whole, isn't it really compared to the big ones? Obviously yes.

Jack (25:24)
Yeah. Well it's i it's flattering. Flattering that we get

compared to Guinness when we're actually that much smaller.

Martin (25:30)
Exactly that, yeah, and it's a big, you know, big boost of...

your ego, suppose, because you've done such a great job with it that people are taking notice of, you know, the small independents and London Black as well as being, you know, a beer that can rival Guinness. And even though you said 0.5 % sales compared to Guinness, which is crazy. So to get that recognition is amazing. But London Black isn't your only beer that you brew. There's plenty of beers that Anspach and Hobday do. And I've tried your lager, your bitter

that you mentioned recently had a 6 % West Coast on cask which I thought was absolutely amazing and just nailed that style for me. So what other beers are you particularly proud of?

Jack (26:18)
Well, yeah, I mean that one's the The IPA was just how we used to brand everything. In fact, London Black, if we hadn't chosen to go slightly off piece, we would have just been called the Nitro Porter, that would have been or the Nitro Session Porter. the IPA is one of the original beers that we brewed. I think we've mixed the hops up a little bit, but it's it was very close to being champion champion beer of Britain. It was champion IPA of Britain in two thousand twenty four.

Martin (26:23)
Yeah.

Jack (26:46)
we were silver supreme, which was was great. I mean, for one of the original beers to to come all that way from the beginning and and still be something we brew regularly, it's amazing. I think we do do really good cask beers. I think the more we became famous for dark beers, the more people look at us for traditional styles. And my personal favourite of ours is the ordinary bitter which again is a Dan Gambino creation.

That's on at my local 3.4%. it's a great beer. It's just yeah, yeah, yeah. I I try and wrestle with him and he should put some rye in it. But other than that, I think it's outstanding. And I think that's won a couple of awards, certainly in the London CAMRA festivals.

Martin (27:24)
You

Jack (27:36)
And then you know, we have done historically loads of different specials. We used to do barrel aging. We used to effectively put out almost a special a week. I think even before we'd set up Croydon, which is twenty nineteen, we'd done at least three hundred unique beers by that point from from twenty fourteen. So it was a lot. but as I say, the reputation for the traditionals is what wins and maybe this this summer we'll

Perhaps change that a little bit as we actually have done our first New England IPA collab. I don't know if you'd seen that. It was announced on it's with a brewer called O/O, who are in in YEUH-teh-borj Gothenburg. and Olle, the brewer, he's quite well known for his New England IPAs. I think he had a I understand he's had a quite an instrumental role in in developing the first New England IPAs from

Martin (28:10)
who's to collab with.

Okay.

Jack (28:30)
another larger brewery in Gothenburg called Stigbergets and theirs became kind of the staple and it was really down to his recipe before he set up his brewing. They have a great tap room if anyone ever gets over to Gothenburg and we're it's called Tack, which is a little bit of play on putty but actually also that's Swedish for thanks because tack så mycket is thanks very much. So

Tack's coming out. We actually this Friday at the Arch House, the third of July, we've got the sort of preview tasting of it, and it'll be out in trade from the 6th of July. And it's a proper haze bomb. It's yeah, it's it's not very Anspach and Hobday. I think the well the brewers have enjoyed the challenge of with all this guidance learning how to

Martin (29:15)
something different.

Jack (29:25)
how to do it. And I think it has we have intentionally gone on the more bitter side. I think it's perhaps a bit close to some earlier New England IPAs. It's not just a sort of fruit juice and so yeah, it'll be interesting to see how it's received. I think it will have some reactions. I asked Paul

to do a little teaser video of it which went out on Friday, you'll be able to see on our Instagram. And I know at least one person messaged him because we've been well he's been quite outspoken about not loving the style. Someone said, You're dead to me. which obviously in jest, he's well it's it's good. I think ultimately

Martin (29:57)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jack (30:09)
think ultimately if you really, really like beer, you can't really ever close off any sort of style. You know, there was a time when there was a time when cask was kind of dead. and it was it was something which I I was it but the only reason we've done cask for so long is because I worked at Craft Beer Co. and used to look after the cask there and enjoy it so much. And Steve Gray, another of our brewers, he was a he basically taught me everything about cask and

Martin (30:14)
Definitely not.

Jack (30:36)
that love for it was there. But I remember at the time haven't it was keg or it was well bottle, which is bizarre, but keg or bottle. It couldn't be cask if you were cool and craft. that's like two thousand fourteen.

Martin (30:49)
which is silly because I still feel that there's some great, you know, really good craft, New England IPAs, hazy IPAs being made in cask. And it annoyed me when I just kept on seeing the same cask beers, you know, old style, if you like traditional beers, even the IPAs, but that weren't on the bar.

Jack (31:01)
Yeah.

Martin (31:13)
when there was plenty of breweries around making really, you know, changing IPAs in casks and it can be done.

Jack (31:22)
we've done like six casks of the tack, which is six point five percent and yeah, hazy. It's gonna be a a fairly expensive cask, but

Martin (31:27)
lovely.

You have to save me a pint and I'll

pop over.

Jack (31:35)
Yeah, yeah, well that's a good point. I haven't talked to the team if we're actually doing it for this Friday at the Arch. We'll have to publicise that if we are. But yeah, you're gonna want it in the right venue to have a nine gallon of a six point five percent New England IPA. It's gotta be it's gotta be looked after.

Martin (31:52)
Yeah.

It certainly has. If there's some good beers on Cask I always go Cask first before I look at the keg. But unfortunately, most places these days, you go to the keg

because the cask isn't very much looked after. So that is a key to, I walk into a boozer, I look around and I see what people are drinking. If people are drinking cask, I'm pretty sure that the cask is kept good if a lot of people are drinking it. So that's my first looking point. Yeah.

Jack (32:23)
I'm exactly

the same. yeah, to the yeah, absolutely. when it's at its best though, it's just brilliant.

Martin (32:30)
it's beautiful. Yeah, can't beat a good cask. It's beautiful. More people should be drinking it.

So we're talking about independent brewing in general. You know, it's had its challenge in last few years. It's been quite tough recently. Lots of issues. Where do you think independent brewing is heading now? new places opening, but a lot of places closing a lot more pubs.

closing, which means less access to market, etc.

Jack (32:59)
Yeah, well I think it's definitely not a great market. I don't think the current government's helping that at all. I don't want to get too political, but I think it's fairly obvious with what they did with the rates. maybe that even their attitude towards duty, I think they're not helping pubs, they're not helping brewers. I think they're not I think SIBA are the trade body that looks after the independent brewers is doing a good job of of trying to raise issues. But I think when you've got

Martin (33:07)
Yeah.

Yeah, 100%.

Jack (33:29)
sort of chaotic government who aren't really I there's a lot of things down the road that they're that it just don't seem to have been thought through carefully. We've got the deposit return scheme, things which are gonna happen, which are basically gonna add deposit costs to

having small pack with the idea being that people could can redeem the value of those And there may be a carve out for small brewers, but Scotland tried to launch one two, three years ago and everyone had to do lots of work to try and get ready for it and decide if they were going to keep even selling beer into Scotland, which is mad if you think of the UK as one country. and then they had to scrap it because they made such a bad job of trying to launch it. So it didn't even happen. So you just had this merry go round. I think the biggest

I think I'm interested to learn more about the demographics because we hear often and repeatedly that less and less people are drinking and that with the younger crowd there are just less drinkers. I think that's true, but I think some of that is to do with the next generation arriving to pubs a bit late, and part of that I think is to do with the cost of living. I think it's also to do with

perhaps a society where everyone's a bit more infantilised anyway. I'm I don't mean any disrespect to people at the age of eighteen and whatnot, but I think if it's too expensive to go to the pub and that social scene isn't sort of coming together, I think that's a big reason. Obviously there's health aspects, but then you look at I think it that potentially just leads to other outlets like vaping and even actually the worst of it's obviously buzzballs in parks, but it

Martin (35:11)
yeah.

Jack (35:11)
Yeah, I I think that I think that humans are quite

likely to find some sorts of escapes. And I think we should question as a society if the rise in non-drinking may lead to actually some other unhealthy outcomes instead of it just being a default. And I as I think my prediction would be that you'll see that drinking amongst the generation that's just gone and

the one that follows will will actually probably rise again. Cause I think there's you always get a bit of a pendulum swing and no generation wants to be like the one the one that was ahead of them. I mean, let's not forget that if you go back, I mean we were very close to prohibition as a country at one point when the Americans were and I think if you go back to Oliver Cromwell times, I mean they tried to ban Christmas, you can get some puritanical phases where everyone thinks this is awful. I think what needs to be talked about is the

Martin (35:46)
Yeah, of course,

Jack (36:10)
The well, the community and enjoyment value that pubs and breweries bring, the fact that people aren't on their own, the social, you know, the loneliness kills. It's not it's not a laughing matter.

Martin (36:22)
Yeah, it's

not just a place where people get drunk. You know, it's a lot more than that. It's a community. It's like, you know, social space for people that are on their own.

Jack (36:25)
Yeah.

Martin (36:36)
you know, COVID, if anything, proved that if you take away that socialisation from people, they find it hard. No one wants to be stuck indoors and not socialising with friends and family. But as you said, without going too political, I feel that there's not enough people in government that understands the hospitality sector as a whole. And there's just too many people that, you know,

this should be done, this should be done, this should be done, but they're not actually understanding the whole system and how it works and why it works and what it's there for.

Jack (37:16)
Mm, yeah. I completely

agree. I mean, I think the the biggest points I would make on government trying to fix it are we did some work earlier this year on duty and if you small breweries do get duty relief, so that would make the conversation a bit more complicated. But if you assumed we paid full duty rate, a pint of London Black would be about forty eight pence of duty if we were a macro brewery like Guinness that size.

We pay less than that, but the reason we pay less is to try and counter the size. So in effect, that's where it would be and that is then translated because the idea is our cost base is higher, so the price is still high for the pub anyway. It's just we're paying less duty because we can't make it as cheaply as Diageo can. But

Martin (38:08)
That's just one

cost.

Jack (38:09)
That's that's forty eight pence that's going

to the government. Then of course the government has VAT on top of that. And in the middle you've got the publican who's trying to make ends meat. And they typically are working between 65 and 75% GP. If they're at 70% each 10 pence of duty that we pay in that pint is worth 40 pence to the customer. And if you had the duty of Germany on the same pint, they'd be paying about 4p

So if you take that duty off, if

you take that duty off, you're already saving 44 pence on a pint. So that's you know, close enough to 50p less than what we're already paying, just if we had German duty. But if the publican then also takes the same percentage margin, that's also been reduced. And the VAT is on a smaller final price, then that's 20% extra on top of it. So you get a tax on a tax. So

Martin (39:00)
Yeah.

Jack (39:01)
If we had German duty,

London Black would be instead say £6.50 a pint, it'd be more like £4.30 That's that's what would happen if we took off the duty and changed and they all the margins were applied the same. And VAT was still added. So I I mean it's and no one voted for that. It was never voted for for us to have duty. That was because of war in I think it's World War One. They were trying to make sure people were ready for the munitions factories, so they just

Martin (39:06)
Yeah,

Yeah. Yeah.

Jack (39:28)
And I guess they were trying to fill the coffers. They just hyped the duty up massively. Before World War One we had similar levels to of duty to what Germany has today.

Martin (39:36)
Yeah, yeah, we definitely would like a better tax system for beer and everyone will be enjoying cheaper pints It's just getting someone to understand that in government.

Jack (39:48)
Well it I think the best

way was what they did with rates. And I I you know, I don't think our industry probably has the stomach to try and push for it because they're trying to lobby from within. But the reality is I think banning MPs who don't believe in lowering duty or lowering VAT or both or for the pub sector should be a default. That's what I think. 'Cause it worked previously. It's very damaging for an MP if they can't if they're not welcoming their local pub.

And I think that pubs and brewers should take a fairly hard line on this because ultimately with I think it's three or I forget the the stats, it's a horrendous number. It's at least like one a day are closing. So it doesn't it's that's existential. That's not just like this is a bit awkward. that if the industry doesn't act relatively soon, then you'll just become small enough that no one will care. It won't matter.

Martin (40:30)
yeah, yeah.

Yeah. But as an industry, you'll need to

come together and kind of sing off the same hymn sheet as well. And agree, all come together and agree on what needs to be done. theres always different trade bodies, like, you know, and they're all in it for certain things. And, you know, you've got SIBA we got the BBPA, and, you know, all these different governing bodies. And you just...

Yeah, we all need to come together and agree together on the best way to move forward, to push against the government, to lobby for a better hospitality sector.

Jack (41:22)
Yeah, well I think

we plan to do a bit more on that ourselves if we can to try and coalesce people together for that. Because I think it should just be a policy decision that everyone knows whether MP's in favour of duty remaining the same, getting higher or being lower. And if their position isn't lower, then they shouldn't necessarily be welcome at breweries or pubs.

Martin (41:36)
Yeah.

Yeah,

So yeah looking ahead, what's next for A & H?

Jack (41:46)
Mm.

Well, I think we're likely to do a fundraise. We're coming towards the end of what we can do at our current site with the current tanks. We've actually got spaces for a lot more. So we've got I our eye on a few secondhand tanks at the moment, but I think we're probably due a fairly large upgrade. I mean, we're still gonna be small at the end of that, but if we can put it together we'll use the same brew kit. It's actually probably the best

It's really as long as the the sales growth is there, it's it's really one of the best investments because it's just banging in new tanks and being able to up the output. But we may look at getting a centrifuge as well, maybe a canning line upgrade. and I wouldn't mind having the first A and H pub somewhere. that would be fun. But we've been sort of on the eye out for that for years. It's

It's finding the right location and and also, let's face it, and having the economic environment where it makes sense to get a pub.

Martin (42:50)
Yeah, where you can

actually survive and it's not gonna, you know, go under in a couple of years. Yeah.

Jack (42:57)
Yeah, so

so that's that's that for now and then it'll be more London black, I think.

Martin (43:02)
Yeah, yeah. Welcome more London black. The more it's readily available, the better. We're to go on to a couple of quickfire questions, I think. Well, not a couple. There's quite a few I've got in my mind. So we start off with your favourite beer in your range. That's probably obviously not London black. yeah, we spoke about that beautiful beer.

Jack (43:24)
the Ordinary yeah, the ordinary bitter on cask.

Martin (43:30)
Beer style you wish more people drank

Jack (43:33)
It probably is porters and stouts. I think that a lot of people who a lot of people it's a bit like when people say they don't like beer 'cause they've only ever had lager, which isn't that common, but it's still a thing that people are I don't like beer and it's turns out they've only ever had Foster's or Stella or something. it's the same with

Martin (43:44)
Yeah.

Fosters.

Jack (43:56)
porters and stouts, a lot of people only have had Guinness, they don't like it. But I think a lot of people who like Guinness like London Black, but people a lot of people don't like Guinness like London Black. And I think that the more people who try that sort of style for all small breweries, the better, because I think there's a great world of the dark beer world.

Martin (44:14)
Yeah, definitely. mean, I remember when I was a younger, a younger drinker, I would have Guinness, but I'd have a bit of blackcurrent in it. Shh, don't tell anyone. Just to take that edge off it. that was me growing up as a young lad to drink Guinness. I had to have a bit of blackcurrent in it. yeah, it was just done the job for me as a kid. But then again, I can't say much I was drinking bottles of Budweiser when I was young as well.

Jack (44:40)
I don't worry, we've all been there. I think this the craft beer journey journey starts with lager and finishes with lager in a way. You just start with really bad lager. if you can slot in there a nice a decent nitro porter, I think that's that's hopefully a good addition to people's beer exploration.

Martin (44:46)
Yeah, end up with good lager.

Yeah.

Yes, definitely. right, next one, Cask or Keg.

Jack (45:01)
It's tough. cask.

Martin (45:04)
Yes, most underrated British hop

Jack (45:08)
I'm I don't think it's underrated though. I'm a big fan Bramling Cross. That black currant you get from it's always great. it's in the ordinary bitter, but I feel like actually it has pretty good recognition. So it's I don't know where I would go most underrated. Perhaps some of the new modern ones that maybe people just haven't tried or have learnt about, things like Harlequin and Jester.

Martin (45:31)
Olicana all them ones. definitely. We're getting there, aren't we, with the fruity hops.

Jack (45:36)
Yeah. Well, I think going back

to the the rationale for supporting brewers, I think actually as a country hop growing is expanding, which is great. But that can only happen if brewing and pubs are kind of carry on growing.

Martin (45:49)
Very good, very good. So if you weren't brewing beer or if you, you know, wasn't working at Anspach what would you, what would you be doing?

Jack (45:56)
Well, I think the area I've enjoyed the most, other than I quite like business strategy and trying to get things right. And working with London Black has been very satisfying for that. But I do enjoy the marketing I think there are a lot of very good beers out there that don't get the limelight they deserve. And I think that's how I would think of marketing. and I so I think if you yeah, if I wasn't doing this, I think I would I'd probably put my efforts into some

marketing or maybe you know maybe setting up a similar company in a different area of food or drink.

Martin (46:34)
Yeah. But it's a touch a bit about marketing. It's interesting that you spoke about that because, you know, there's a lot of breweries that started to use AI for marketing campaigns and stuff. What's your take on that? You know, I mean, I can see why they're doing it. It's cheaper. it gets good results if it's done properly, but a lot of people in the industry kind of look and frown upon it.

being used and even though they know how much independent breweries are struggling and that just helps.

Jack (47:05)
Yeah.

I think that ultimately the more AI takes a share of marketing content, the more people will value stuff that is very authentic and genuine. I think you have to be a bit careful that you know, that if you're gonna do an advert or things using AI and you basically don't wanna ever do anything which is gonna

make people not trust your your brand. So if it's you know, unless it's very obvious and you're trying to be funny, I don't think it's a good idea to be duplicitous on that front. That's that said, AI is a great tool for mocking up ideas and for getting things together which you might then take to a professional company. I mean i

Martin (47:35)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, putting the ideas in your head.

Jack (47:56)
I think you can't you just can't ignore the reality that it's in many cases such a huge time saving. So yeah, it's an it's an interesting question. I mean, for example, we work with our illustrator Alan Battley, who's we've worked with for twelve years. and historically if we were Paul and I would come up with or Ellie would come up with the concept design for the cans, then that would might be of historically been like a stick drawing and

a description and he would put it together. Whereas now we we might try and mock that up on the AI. So he's then got something which is approximately what we want to see, but he would then take into his own style. He hasn't yet complained about that, but in a way, he's not copying the AI because we're not looking at the

Martin (48:48)
Yeah, you're just giving the idea.

Jack (48:48)
We're not looking for like

a tracing side, because it's normally there'll be something wrong with it as well anyway. But it might be like, this is roughly what we're after, plus the description. So it you know, it can be useful because that in a way is better than a stick line drawing. But there is a point though where if that's too close to what you want, what's the illustrator really doing and is it fair on them? And that's a really good question. I think

Martin (48:52)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jack (49:16)
Yeah, I'm not sure that I've got all the answers on it.

Martin (49:19)
Yeah, it's a hard one, isn't it? Because obviously you want to save a bit of money, but also you want to look still authentic and have that, you know, this is the vision of the brewery and not have that taken away by, you know, a non-authentic look with AI. it's a subject that's probably going to get spoken about for a long time. Yeah.

Jack (49:35)
Yeah.

time. Yeah, I

think you're right. I I think we should have sympathy for the smaller breweries who typically even A and H as well can't afford to compete or have the timelines that the larger breweries would have with marketing companies.

Martin (49:59)
Yeah.

Jack (50:03)
I don't advocate it actually replacing work, but if you're able to enhance what you can do or the speed at which you can do it, it's a great leveller for that. Is you know, we used to work with quite a big company that did the original branding for Anspach and Hobday, and they could never turn around anything quickly or cheaply. It would always be like a three, four month process. So if we brewed a beer together and it was gonna be ready in two weeks, there'd be no way of getting any sort of branding assets together for it.

Martin (50:27)
Yeah.

Jack (50:29)
other than trying to do something in house and in reality that might not be anywhere near the quality. And so there's that middle ground there where actually we're not you're not taking any work off anyone unless you go into the argument about AI copying everyone's work. You're not taking any work off a company, but you are actually leveling the playing field somewhat.

Martin (50:49)
Yeah, to a certain level. definitely. Finally, if no one's ever visited, you know, Anspach and Hobday, whether that's in the Arch in Bermondsey and Croydon, what's the one beer and one reason you'd give them to change that?

Jack (51:07)
It has to be London Black and that's because I think it summarises the sort of twelve year journey that Anspach & Hobday's been on and more importantly it's become a bit of a symbol for London craft beer and I think especially if you were visiting from far afield to have a pint of that at the Arch House in Bermondsey

It's super creamy, it's at its best. You're in London. you're underneath railway arches that are two hundred years old, that when they were being built, everyone around you was drinking a London porter. I think that's quite special and I hope that it would be an experience that goes a little bit just beyond beer and sort of harks back to the real reason we all drink which should be about community and enjoyment.

Martin (51:56)
Yes, definitely. And taste and flavour. Taste and flavour. Well, Jack, mate, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. You're literally just down the road for me. So I'll be seeing you soon. No doubt. But yeah, thanks.

Jack (52:11)
Yeah, yeah, please do

If you ever want to come to the rising sun in Epsom, let me know. I'll come for a pint.

Martin (52:17)
Yeah, if I'm ever in them ways, I definitely will for sure. But yeah, thank you for coming on. And everyone back at home. We'll see you back in another couple of weeks. So bye for me. yeah, Jack, again, thanks a lot. And we'll see you soon. Cheers.

Jack (52:33)
Thanks, Martin. Cheers.